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Post by hermin1 on Dec 3, 2010 21:10:10 GMT -5
MadRock:
You can scan and make copies of it, or scan and save the copy to your computer.You can scan it, save it and burn off a copy of your article and other genealoy info onto CDs. I am assuming you have a sacanner and a printer, and a CD/DVD Burner.
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Post by lwhitman on Sept 18, 2011 21:39:48 GMT -5
HELP! I am a LaRocque decendent, but I am stuck. My great-great grandfather was Joseph LaRocque, born between 1826 and 1835 (depending on what document you are referencing) in "Iowa." He married Elizabeth Gremore/Grimard in 1856 in Crawford County. Joseph died in Prairie du Chien in 1923. I have read from many sources the history of the LaRocques in the Minnesota/Iowa/Wisconsin area, and believe this Joseph's father may have been one of Augustine's (1787) sons - Augustine (1807) or Joseph (1811), or the son of Jean Baptiste (1805), who was the son of Joseph (1746).
Does anyone have any information that might help me?
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Post by hermin1 on Sept 19, 2011 9:43:31 GMT -5
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Post by lwhitman on Sept 19, 2011 11:21:41 GMT -5
Thank you! I have found a lot of information on Augustine, but not anything on Jean Baptiste. Do you know anything about him: his mother and/or his "wife" (mother of my Joseph)?
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naomi
New Member
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Post by naomi on Oct 3, 2011 0:50:28 GMT -5
I NEED HELP LA BLUE HIS DAUGHTER WHAT IS HER INDIAN NAME. IN THE WAUSA HISTORY HER MOTHER LEFT AND WENT BACK TO HER PEOPLE. sHE MARRIED A ANOTHER CHIEF WHAT HER NAME. i'M CONFUSED NOBODY TELL ME ANYTHING . lAROCQUE WHERE VERY DEVOTED CATHOLIC . MY GG GRANDMA GOT HER LAND ALLOTMENT IN WAUSA COUNTY. WHEN I ASK THEY SAY MY HER SON GAVE UP HIS NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS.
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Post by hermin1 on Oct 4, 2011 7:34:33 GMT -5
naomi:Le Bleu in Dakota translates to To. Joseph 's first wife's English name was angelique or Agatha.
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Post by mink on Nov 19, 2011 18:02:50 GMT -5
Hi all,
I am reviving this old thread because I am interested in the Rocque family. However, that someone named Madeleine Robinson could have been born in what is now St. Paul, MN, in 1810 is puzzling to me. I wonder what a white man would have been doing in the area at this time. There was no Fort Snelling as yet and no American Fur Company trading post at Mendota, across the river from the fort. It was on account of the presence of the garrison and the trading post and some settlers coming down from the Red River that anything grew up which eventually became a city. I have checked in Williams' "History of St. Paul" and see nobody named Robinson settling there until a census of 1850 included an A. B. Robinson. No Dennis, however. "Robinson", of course, is not a French surname. Has anybody found a solution to this mystery yet? Also, if a girl was born in 1810 and didn't marry until 1837, she would have been the oldest first-time bride anyone ever heard of in those days when it was common for white or metisse females to marry at 15 or 16. Among native Americans the age was even younger.
In his unfinished autobiography, Henry Sibley, first governor of Minnesota, mentioned that, in 1834, when he was traveling north from Prairie du Chien, the only habitation between this place and "St. Peter's" [Mendota] belonged to a man named Rocque. Sibley and his companions stayed at Rocque's house and found themselves charmed by the man's pretty 16-year-old daughter. Sibley didn't mention her name, but evidently recalled her many years later while writing his memoir.
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You need to remember that the first census done in that area was the 1849 Minnesota Territorial Census.Who said or wrote that Dennis Robinson, the father of Thomas and Madeline Robinson lived in or near or what is now St. PauL?
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Post by madrock on Nov 27, 2011 8:23:25 GMT -5
The information you find puzzling was taken from her 1904 obituary. See: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~madalinerocque/obit.htmlI am descended from Madaline Rocque. Madaline (aka Madeliene, Magdalena, & other variations) had two daughters, Mathilda & Josephine. The oldest, Mathilda married my widowed great-great grandfather, Carl Ebersold (aka Aebersold). Josephine married my great-grandfather Charles Ebersold (son of Carl). As best I can determine, the sister's older brothers died young and had no children. Their younger brother, Felix, died in middle age and left three children, Josephine, Mary & Felix. The widow of the father Felix (Susan), later married Joseph Windgrew. I have found every descendant of Mathilda and Josephine but have had limited success in locating more recent descendants of Felix other than his children. I would like to know more of your interest in the Rocque family and would share any documentation I have that might help you in your research. My eMail address is at the bottom of the website link above. Hi all, I am reviving this old thread because I am interested in the Rocque family. However, that someone named Madeleine Robinson could have been born in what is now St. Paul, MN, in 1810 is puzzling to me. I wonder what a white man would have been doing in the area at this time. There was no Fort Snelling as yet and no American Fur Company trading post at Mendota, across the river from the fort. It was on account of the presence of the garrison and the trading post and some settlers coming down from the Red River that anything grew up which eventually became a city. I have checked in Williams' "History of St. Paul" and see nobody named Robinson settling there until a census of 1850 included an A. B. Robinson. No Dennis, however. "Robinson", of course, is not a French surname. Has anybody found a solution to this mystery yet? Also, if a girl was born in 1810 and didn't marry until 1837, she would have been the oldest first-time bride anyone ever heard of in those days when it was common for white or metisse females to marry at 15 or 16. Among native Americans the age was even younger. In his unfinished autobiography, Henry Sibley, first governor of Minnesota, mentioned that, in 1834, when he was traveling north from Prairie du Chien, the only habitation between this place and "St. Peter's" [Mendota] belonged to a man named Rocque. Sibley and his companions stayed at Rocque's house and found themselves charmed by the man's pretty 16-year-old daughter. Sibley didn't mention her name, but evidently recalled her many years later while writing his memoir. |
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Post by mink on Dec 5, 2011 13:49:22 GMT -5
Hi Mad Rock
I am an historian of the settlements along the Mississippi. In my research, I have found more than once that a person claimed to be older than he or she really was. It isn't a female characteristic today but, in days of yore, being the "oldest person in the county" had some distinction attached to it. Possibly, though, your ancestor, Madeleine, did not even know how old she really was. I quote your information:
"20 Jul 1850: Madelene Rocque, age 28, is living in the county of Wabashaw, Territory of Minnesota with husband Joseph Rocque. Children listed are Joseph, Jr. age 10; Domitille (Mathilda) , age 8; Baptiste, age 9; Louis Joseph (Josephine) age 2 [Source: 7th Federal Census]"
In order to be 28 in 1850, Madeleine would have been born in 1822--not 1810.
"30 Jun 1860: Madeline Rocque, age 43, is living in county of Wabashaw, State of Minnesota with husband Joseph Rocque. Children listed are Baptist, age 20; Mathilda, ago 14, Josephine age 12, Leander, age 5; Felix, age 1 [Source: 8th Federal Census]"
Now the date of birth changes to 1817!
"08 Jun 1865: Madaline Rocque, female, is living in city of Wabasha, Wabasha County, Minnesota with husband, Jo Rocque. Children listed are Matilda, Josephine and Felix. [Source: 1865 Minnesota State Census]
01 Jun 1870: Magdalena Rock, 50 yr. old female Indian, is living in Town of Alma, Buffalo County, Wisconsin with husband Joseph Rock, 50 yr. old male Indian. Only child listed is Felix, 12 yr. old male Indian. [Source: 9th Federal Census]"
Date of birth changes to 1820! Since there were no birth certificates on record, you could give the census taker any age you liked. But, as you can see, Madeleine never made herself so old as to be born in 1810 when she was still reasonably young--although nobody of fifty was considered "young" in the 19th Century. It was, in fact, considered "old age", as I have seen written more than once, too.
The reason I am interested in this is because of the statement that Madeleine was born of a white father in 1810 around what is now St. Paul, MN. As I said before, there was no Fort Snelling and no trading post across the river from it that early. I did find out that Jean Baptiste Faribault had come there that early but didn't settle at Mendota until 1820. I don't know everyone he worked with, but I doubt there were any non-French about until the fort began to be constructed by US troops circa 1820. Robinson or Robertson are not French surnames. So, all things considered, I think it is a better bet that Madeleine's father was someone connected to Fort Snelling and that she was born after 1820.
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Post by mink on Dec 7, 2011 12:36:24 GMT -5
This is interesting regarding a Baptiste Rocque:
Muster Roll of Captain Thomas McNair's Company.
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A Volunteer Company Raised During the Winnebago War of 1827.
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Muster Roll of Captain Thomas McNair's Companyof Michigan Militia ordered into service by his excellency Lewis Cass Governor of the Michigan Territory on the 4th day of July 1827.
Thomas McNair Capt.
Joseph Brisbois
Jean Brunait
Strange Powers
Andre Basin
Tunis Bell
Julien Lauvier
Francis Chenevert
Peter Barette
Isaac Harrison
Jean Pion
Asselin Augustin
Antaya Christortome
M B W Brisbois
Augt Buisson
Paul Bourdignon
Lavoine Baith
Luriomt Baith
Charles Barrun
Louis Cardinal
Oliver Chener
Etienne Dyonne
Joseph Dugui
Joseph Deschampt
Francis Descouquet
Laurent Delonmier
Jacob Ells
George Fisher
Charles Gilbert
Joseph Gardossie
Pierre Grimard
Basil Gagnier
Anable Grignon
Paul Bussuame
Claude Gagnier
Larivier Michel
Baptiste Larivier
Joachim Lapointe
Charles Lapointe jr
Francis Lapointe
Pierre Linglois
Pierre Legris
Jean Bape Loyer
Jean Lemerey
Pierre Lessarde
Joseph Lameronde
Joseph Marcier
Felix Marcier
Charles Menard [Jr. or middle initial “J.”]
Edward Nockle
Howard Newman
Edward Pizanne
Joseph Potwin
Francis Provost
Joseph Ranger
Antoine Reed
Joseph Robinette
Baptiste Rock
Antoine Robert
Charles St. Antoine
Baptiste? St. Martin [page torn]
William Shaw
Michel Saidlow
Joseph Thomas
Julien Villiote
Jean Bpt. Wemette
Jean Bpt. Willette
I certify that this Muster Roll exhibits the true slate of Thomas McNairs’s company of the Michigan Militia for the period herein mentioned, and that the remarks set opposite the names of the men are accurate and just. Given at Prairie du Chien in the Territory of Michigan this thirty first Day of July 1827.
I, personally, can vouch for most of the surnames being those of Prairie du Chien residents for many years afterward--although some of the first and last names are misspelled. Joseph Robinette I do know about and he did not come north to St. Peter's [Mendota] until about 1840. But Antoine Robert I do not know. I wonder if there isn't a French name like these behind "Robinson" or "Robertson". The fact is that those of French mixed descent, like the Rocque, normally only married other persons of like descent. That is how the French language was kept alive at Prairie du Chien until as late as the 1950's when the younger generation began to abandon it! Dennis is a French first name, spelled "Denis", and so is Madeleine [the correct French spelling]. That is the name of my youngest daughter. I hope I am not muddying the waters too much.
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Post by madrock on Dec 8, 2011 9:40:47 GMT -5
. . . . In order to be 28 in 1850, Madeleine would have been born in 1822--not 1810. . . . As I mentioned in my last post, Madeleine's birth date of 1810 was taken from her 1904 Wabasha Herald obituary which is not considered the best documentation. But in the absence of a birth certificate or infant baptismal certificate, her birth date of 1810 was used with the source listed. The obituary is also the only "source" of her place of birth which could also be viewed with doubt. There is documentation she married in Prairie du Chien in 1837 which would calculate to her being age 15 which would not be unusual in those days. Her calculated birth date of 1822 based on her recorded age 28 on the 1850 census coincides with James Hansen, writing about Augustin Rock (abt 1787 - aft 10 Dec 1856) in his "Origins of the Roc/Rock Family," THE GENEALOGIST [Spring 1997]. "The record of the 1838 mixed-blood payment also listed a Madeleine Rock, age 16, grouped with Augustin's known children. Madeleine was not Augustin's daughter as the power of attorney and payment record suggest, but rather his daughter-in-law, Madeleine (Robinson) Rock, the mixed-blood wife of Augustin's son Joseph (the Joseph Sr. of the power of attorney)." In order to be 16 in 1838, Madeliene would have been born in 1822. Also in "Origins" writing about Joseph Roc (ca. 1811 - 1875) Hansen documents from Crawford County Wisconsin Marriages of Joseph's marriage to Madeliene Robinson. "He m. 15 June 1837 at Prairie du Chien, Madeleine Robinson, the mixed-blood daughter of Dennis Robinson and a Mdewakanton Sioux woman." He does not document where she was born. I've not researched Dennis/Denis Robinson in order to determine where he resided/traded in the early 1800's. It is quite possible Madeliene could have been born anywhere in the upper Mississippi river region. |
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Post by madrock on Dec 8, 2011 11:24:09 GMT -5
This is interesting regarding a Baptiste Rocque: Muster Roll of Captain Thomas McNair's Company. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Volunteer Company Raised During the Winnebago War of 1827. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- /// SNIP /// Jean Baptiste Roc, b. ca. 1805, bp. 30 Apr 1817 at Prairie du Chien, age 12. He served in Capt. Thomas McNair's militia company in the Winnebago War 16-31 July 1827. He is the son of Joseph Roc (13 Sep 1746-aft Jan 1815) and his third Sioux wife. Source: James Hansen's "Origins of the Roc/Rock Family" |
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Post by hermin1 on Dec 9, 2011 3:48:27 GMT -5
mink: you must remember that the native americans did not tell time like we whites did and do. The phrase near Fort Snelling you mentioned in re.to madeleine's approx. date of birth, was not specific. I suggest you check out the ref. "Old fort Snelling"(type history of Old fort snelling in to Google). madeleine rocque was not part French, her father Dennis Robinson was scotch-irish.Also check out History of the Dakota or sioux Indians by doane Robinson in South Dakota Historical Collections. Vol. !!. 1904. for a good history of the region around and in what later became Ft. Snelling, and Minnesota.You will find that there were whites(french, British etc.)in the region before 1819.
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Post by mink on Dec 9, 2011 16:47:38 GMT -5
Oh, gosh, "Old Fort Snelling" is a staple for people like me. Great book. I have it here but my books are mostly still packed away due to a move. I will check the other reference you and MR gave, too. To me it's all of interest. Of course, men had come to the "St. Peter's" area before the construction of the fort. Jonathan Carver made the trip in the 18th Century. But the fact remains that the earliest known part-white settler was Jean Baptiste Faribault--and not until 1820. "Passing through" is another matter and it is difficult to pin down those who did. Apparently someone did zero in on a Dennis Robinson. I'll check it out.
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Post by hermin1 on Dec 11, 2011 12:46:28 GMT -5
So did Zebulon Pike, french missionaries as well come to the area beore 1819.
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Post by mink on Dec 11, 2011 14:56:18 GMT -5
Yes, Hermin, but the building of Fort Snelling closed the gap because it caused people to feel safe in settling in its vicinity and enterprises like the fur companies set up shop. As you probably know, the first French missionary to actually construct anything that resembled a church was Lucien Galtier in 1841 in what is now downtown St. Paul. The fur trade went great guns but the settlers soon ran afoul of the fort commanders because some of them were selling whiskey. Infractions by some merited punishment for all. I grew up in Minnesota but can't even imagine living there before central heating, snow plows, window screens and other mosquito control. I suggest a summer excursion to an older settlement, Prairie du Chien. It is really a lovely place and full of history, always something going on because its chamber of commerce is tireless. Father Galtier, himself, lies under a marble tomb in front of St. Gabriel Archangel church at Prairie du Chien. The church has been active for 170 years to this day. Now the Catholic church claims good success with converting the native population but I really wonder about this--and rather doubt it. I don't mean the metis but those who kept within their own tribal circumstances. I think the food donations of Catholic and Protestant denominations to starving nations caused a situation where there was more enthusiasm for Christianity on the surface than in reality.
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Post by mink on Dec 11, 2011 15:42:37 GMT -5
HELP! I am a LaRocque decendent, but I am stuck. My great-great grandfather was Joseph LaRocque, born between 1826 and 1835 (depending on what document you are referencing) in "Iowa." He married Elizabeth Gremore/Grimard in 1856 in Crawford County. Joseph died in Prairie du Chien in 1923. I have read from many sources the history of the LaRocques in the Minnesota/Iowa/Wisconsin area, and believe this Joseph's father may have been one of Augustine's (1787) sons - Augustine (1807) or Joseph (1811), or the son of Jean Baptiste (1805), who was the son of Joseph (1746). Does anyone have any information that might help me? Whitman, if you are still reading here, check out this site: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/metis.htmIt mentions your family members. If you wish to know more details, the baptism, marriage and funeral records of St. Gabriel's Catholic church, the only one in Prairie du Chien until 1891 when another RC church was founded by Bohemian settlers, are archived at the diocese of La Crosse, WI. I will search the Crawford County cemetery records for you and get back. |
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Post by mink on Dec 11, 2011 16:36:47 GMT -5
Checking all the cemeteries of Prairie du Chien, I only came up with LaRogue,Joseph JR 1861---1937 Clara J. 1861---1938 LaRocque,Peter R. Jan;23,1891---Aug;26,1959,WWI Sophia E. 1891---1966 Jaque R. 1920---1954,son of Dorothy Johnson The first one is surely "LaRoque" and not "LaRogue" but dpesn't seem to be your Joseph. You can try checking the other cemeteries of Crawford County here at this user-friendly site: www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wicrawfo/crawcem.htmlThere is also a book by Mary Martell, "Memoirs, Our People the Indians" which includes families of Prairie du Chien and LaRocque, as well. |
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Post by madrock on Dec 12, 2011 13:01:05 GMT -5
HELP! I am a LaRocque decendent, but I am stuck. My great-great grandfather was Joseph LaRocque, born between 1826 and 1835 . . . . . . . . believe this Joseph's father may have been one of Augustine's (1787) sons - Augustine (1807) or Joseph (1811), or the son of Jean Baptiste (1805), who was the son of Joseph (1746).
lwhitman: According to James Hansen's "Origins of the Roc/Rock Family of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha:" Augustine Roc (1807) had only one child with Lajouseuse, a Menominee woman; Pauline Roc (b. ca. 1833). Joseph Roc (1811) had five children with Madeleine Robinson; the oldest named Joseph (b. abt. 1840 - d. aft. 1850 & bef. 1855). Being that he died between the ages of 10-15 it would not seem possible he fathered any children. This would seem to rule out Augustine Roc (1807) and Joseph Roc (1811) being the progenitor of your GGGF Joseph LaRocque (b. (1826 or 1835). Hansen's "Origins" does not list a marriage or children born to Jean Baptiste Roc (1805), but did find that he voted in elections at Prairie du Chien on 6 Apr 1829 and 5 Apr 1830. This would seem to keep open the possibility that Jean Baptiste Roc (1805) may have married and had children. I know this limited information is not very helpful but it does narrow your possibilities from 3 to 1. Both hermin1 & mink mention your Jean Baptiste Roc (1805) family is listed at: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/metis.htmI did a quick read of it and see some differences from Hansen's essay. I'll compare them and comment in a following post. |
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Post by madrock on Dec 13, 2011 10:47:58 GMT -5
Thank you! I have found a lot of information on Augustine, but not anything on Jean Baptiste. Do you know anything about him: his mother and/or his "wife" (mother of my Joseph)? Because the given or first names of Augustin[e] and Joseph are repeated one generation after another the article "Metis in the Prairie du Chien area" is a very confusing piece of information. If birth dates had been added to these names there would not have been the confusion especially when in some cases Hansen documents more children than Martell and in another matchup Martell lists an additional child than does Hansen. Anyway, one part of Mary Martell's "French Canadian Families in the United States" does match Hansen's "Origins of the Roc Families of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha." And this Jean Baptiste is probably the father of your GGGF Joseph LaRocque. Martell: Augustine [Larocque] had a son Joseph (cal1ed Roc) who maried a Sioux woman, early records at St. Gabriels, Prairie du Chien, Wis. Their children were: 1 Marie, born 1801; 2. Catherine, born 1804; 3. Jean Bapt., born 1805. Hansen: Augustine Roc [b. 23 Aug 1715 @ Varennes, Canada] had 10 children, one being Joseph Roc [b. 13 Sep 1746 @ Varennes, Canada] married three Sioux women, the first two Mdewakanton and the third a Sisseton. Joseph [1746] had six children by his two Mdewakanton wives and three children by his Sisseton wife. The last three children are Marie Roc [b. ca. 1801 @ unknown], Catherine Roc [b. ca. 1804 @ unknown], and Jean Baptiste Roc [b. ca. 1805 @ unknown]. All three were baptised in Prairie du Chien 30 Apr 1817; Marie age 16, Catherine age 13 and Jean Baptiste age 12. Hansen in "Origins" does not list a spouse or children of Jean Baptiste [b. ca. 1805]. Hansen's final documentation on this Jean Baptiste was that he voted in elections at Prairie du Chien on 5 Apr 1830. So we know he lived at least 25 years, plenty of time for a family. Added later: Your GGGF Joseph LaRocque being "born between 1826 and 1835" could easily be a son of Jean Baptiste Roc mentioned above and his being born in "Iowa" could be just the distance across the Mississippi from Prairie du Chien to the west bank which is Iowa. |
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