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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 22:02:51 GMT -5
here is a link to the family from which hansens says the Rocs in minnesota,etc descend from. According to Hansen, he wrote that the jean Baptiste, the son of Philipe Couillaud Dit larocquebrunne(sp.) was the father of augustin Roc born@1715,who with his first spouse ired Joseph Roc(b. 1746) and Augustine Roc(b.1744).You will note however, that jean Baptiste also had a son Joseph Roc(who would be their Uncle, in addition to at least ten-11 more siblings. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/laroc1e.htmBut that says nothing about who the father of lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque really was. She suspects it was the Jean Baptiste born in 1805--about whom nothing is known right now regarding any possible wife and children. Since there's an impasse, it's probably best to wait and see what documents she can dig up from Prairie du Chien. |
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 23:04:38 GMT -5
Well...here at last is something useful. It is the 1880 Federal Census. There is a Joseph La Rocque living in Prairie du Chien and he claims to be 46 years old--born about 1834 in Wisconsin--not Dubuque. His wife's name is Lizzie [Elizabeth], and she gives her age as 36 and born in Wisconsin about 1844. lwhitman already mentioned that her Joseph LaRocque, the one who married Elizabeth Grimard, was not necessarily as old as his obituary claimed--and that seems to be correct according to this census. Moreover, Joseph La Rocque said his father was born in Canada and his mother in British America. Lizzie said both her parents were born in Canada. Joseph LaRocque gave his occupation as "worker on Raft Boat". The couple had two sons living with them: Joseph, age 18 and born about 1862 Peter, age 11 According to the obituary, the only son remaining when Joseph LaRocque died was Joseph, Jr. I had already posted in this thread: "According to this site and Mary Martel freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/metis.htmthe Jean Baptiste born in 1805 first saw the light of day at Prairie du Chien. " So he has to be eliminated if the father of Joseph LaRocque was born in Canada. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 23:19:04 GMT -5
Thou assumest too much,, I fear. I did not say I disapproved of of Hansen's findings. I have some questions, shared by others who have the same questions and others.they have read the same article I obtained and forwarded copies of to.
I do agree that lwhitman should see about getting the records.
I offered to share a copy of the article with you.
As for the obituary, the only way you can refute what it says is to find documentation to prove your point.
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 23:34:09 GMT -5
It's as simple as this: "Don't believe everything you read in the papers". Besides, the obituary says the parents of Joseph La Rocque didn't come to Prairie du Chien until 1828. That leaves out Joseph and Augustin LaRocque/Rocque because they, while born in Canada, were already in PdC before that. That obituary is anything but helpful--but you are welcome to believe every word of it if you want to.
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Post by mink on Apr 1, 2012 0:00:03 GMT -5
But the 1900 census has Joseph Larocque born in Iowa
Name:
Joseph La Rocque
Residence:
Prairie du Chien city, Crawford, Wisconsin
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Iowa
Relationship to Head of Household:
Self
Spouse:
Elizabeth La Rocque
Spouse's Titles & Terms:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Wisconsin
Father:
Father's Titles & Terms:
Father's Birthplace:
Canada Fr
Mother:
Mother's Titles & Terms:
Mother's Birthplace:
Canada Fr
Race or Color (expanded):
White
Head-of-household Name:
Joseph La Rocque
Gender:
Male
Marital Status:
Married
Years Married:
43
Estimated Marriage Year:
1857
A
Family Number:
326
Reference Number:
14
Film Number:
1241782
Image Number:
00294
Household
Gender
Age
Joseph La Rocque
M
Spouse
Elizabeth La Rocque
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Post by mink on Apr 1, 2012 0:10:08 GMT -5
Here's Joseph Larocque, Jr. at PdC in the 1910 census. I couldn't find the old man anymore:
Name:
Joseph Larocque
Birthplace:
Wisconsin
Relationship to Head of Household:
Self
Residence:
Prairie Du chien Ward 4, Crawford, Wisconsin
Marital Status:
Married
Race :
White
Gender:
Male
Immigration Year:
Father's Birthplace:
Wisconsin
Mother's Birthplace:
Wisconsin
Family Number:
52
Page Number:
17
Household
Gender
Age
Joseph Larocque
M
48y
Spouse
Clara Larocque
F
49y
Child
Edna Larocque
F
21y
Child
Peter Larocque
M
19y
Child
William Larocque
M
13y
Child
Beatrice Larocque
F
7y
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 1, 2012 8:50:02 GMT -5
That is true. an old saying my bro the history prof. used to tell me, "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear". I believe it also applies to what is written in books,on the net, as well as in newspapers.
Not having access to the original obituary,I have no opinion as to its validity.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 1, 2012 10:44:18 GMT -5
This is all from Hermin: "children of Augustin and sioux woman, baptized by Fr. Dunand were: Louis bap. May 4,1817 Age 4 yrs. Augustin bapt. may 5, 1817 age 10 yrs. Francois age 6 yrs, bapt. May 5,1817 Angelique age 18mos. bapt. may 5,1817 Catherine age 8 yrs., bapt. May 5,1817 alkl by Fr. Dunand at Prairie du Chien. Ref. Prairie Du Chien's Earliest church Records, 1817. James L. Hansen. Minn. Geneal. Journ. : 4, pp.329-342" "No 282 Rock,Augustin and ________laJouseuse(PdC) ,they of full age. Certificate: Aug. 30, 1835. by J.H. Lockwood,J.P. (Marriages, Crawford County, vol1, p.24)." It seems to me--just trying to clarify who some of these people were in my own mind--that the Augustin who married LaJouseuse can best be the Augustin born in 1807. Am I right or wrong? ___________________ this is what I had posted on page 8 of this thread: I have Jean Baptiste Roc age 12 yrs. baptized Prairie du chien apr. 30,1817 Catherine Roc age 13 yrs. bapt. same place Apr. 30,1817 Marie Roc age 16 yrs. baptized same place, Apr. 30,1817. By Fr. Dunand. These were the children of Joseph Rocque and a Sioux woman. __________ children of Augustin and sioux woman, baptized by Fr. Dunand were: Louis bap. May 4,1817 Age 4 yrs. Augustin bapt. may 5, 1817 age 10 yrs. Francois age 6 yrs, bapt. May 5,1817 Angelique age 18mos. bapt. may 5,1817 Catherine age 8 yrs., bapt. May 5,1817 alkl by Fr. Dunand at Prairie du Chien. Ref. Prairie Du Chien's Earliest church Records, 1817. James L. Hansen. Minn. Geneal. Journ. : 4, pp.329-342 Mr. Hansen mentioned that the above original records were all in French. the originals are kept at St. Gabriel's church,that wisconsin State Historical Soc. has a photostatic copy, and there is a transcript of these early records in the papers of Scanlon, the historian for Prairie du chien. « Last Edit: Mar 18, 2012, 12:32pm by hermin1 » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top Read more: oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=requesthere&action=display&thread=2358&page=8#ixzz1qnuDWYl |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 1, 2012 10:52:16 GMT -5
Link to how Iowa became a state: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_Territoryrecords of births in Dubuque begin in the year 1880. I wonder,Lwhitman, did elizabeth Grimard(sp) have a family bible? A lotof failies recorded importantdates, ie/ births,marriages,deaths in the family bible. I know my mother had one which had all our births, recorded in it but in greek. |
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Post by mink on Apr 1, 2012 11:52:39 GMT -5
Link to how Iowa became a state: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_Territoryrecords of births in Dubuque begin in the year 1880. I wonder,Lwhitman, did elizabeth Grimard(sp) have a family bible? A lotof failies recorded importantdates, iebierths,marriages,deathsin the faily bible. I knowmy mother had one whichhadallourbirths, recorded in it but in greek. You may be right about the 1880 for all I know but the record of baptisms goes back a lot earlier at Dubuque--however far back St. Raphael's Cathedral has them. The diocese of Dubuque was founded around 1837 or so and it had only the one church, St. Raphael's, served by Father Samuel Mazzuchelli. It's still not early enough for the Joseph Larocque that lwhitman is interested in, though, if he was born at Dubuque. As lwhitman mentioned, this particular Larocque family lived in the 4th Ward of Prairie du Chien or St. Feriole Island, separated from the rest of PdC by a slough [water channel]. The place was flooded repeatedly and, finally, the Army Corps of Engineers recommended all the families be moved off the island of 240 acres and their houses as well. This dispersed a lot of people, some moving away from PdC for good. This tells all about the move, opposed by many of the "River Rats" [as the people of St. Feriole called themselves]: www.bigrivermagazine.com/feriole.html Now there are only a few very old buildings of historical significance left on the island, including the grand Victorian mansion, the Villa Louis. lwhitman is a descendant of Peter Larocque, her grandfather, but I wonder if anybody is left in PdC from that family. The last membership roster I have from St. Gabriel's of PdC [the church most of the persons of French extraction attend] is from 2003, but there isn't a single Larocque or Grimard/Gremore on it. |
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Post by mink on Apr 1, 2012 16:12:11 GMT -5
This is rather odd...I checked the entire 1850 US Census for Larocque/Rocque but found nobody by that name in Prairie du Chien. This was before lwhitman's Joseph Larocque married. Where was his family--according to his obituary having come to the town in 1828--and where was he? His future wife, Elizabeth Grimard, was ten years old and living in the household of her father, Peter/Pierre, at PdC in that year as expected.
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Post by mink on Apr 3, 2012 9:50:07 GMT -5
The situation becomes stranger. The Wisconsin State Census of 1885 has a Joseph Larocque living in Prairie du Chien with 3 males and 4 females in his household. All were born in the US. There is also a Private Joseph Larocque serving in the Wisconsin Infantry with his post office address listed as Prairie du Chien.
The Wisconsin State Census of 1895 has a Joseph Larocque living at PdC with 2 males and 2 females living in his house, all born in the US. That is probably Joseph LaRocque, Jr. There is also a Joe Larocque whose PdC household has 2 males and 1 female, 1 born in the US and 2 in France.
It's also odd that I couldn't find a Joseph Larocque in PdC in the 1870s although I found two young heads of familes, A. B. Larocque, a Canadian, who in 1870 had his wife and daughter, age one. In fact, this couple lost two children in the early 70's...
LaRocque,Louis A. died May 18,1872,age 6 months;son of A.B.&
Mary Martha M. died July 26,1874,age 5 yrs,8 mo;dau.of A.B.& M.M.
However, in 1875 there is A. B. Larocque with 2 males and 7 females in his domicile!! Another young Canadian, Roc Larocque, lived in PdC with his wife and 6 kids, all born in Canada, in 1870. Larocque is not that uncommon a name. There was even a film star Rod [Frederick] Larocque, not from PdC. Another movie star of the silent era was born in either PdC or neighboring Eastman, Barbara Bedford of Bohemian extraction.
In the 1920 Federal Census I did find Joseph Larocque, age 89, living in the house of his son, Joseph Jr., just like the obituary claims.
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Post by mink on Apr 3, 2012 22:55:42 GMT -5
It looks like there are still Larocques in Prairie diu Chien after all:
"Grant County, WI - January 16, 2011 - Sheriff Keith Govier announced the retirement of Najah this week, the Grant County canine whose handler is Deputy Jay Fitzgerald. Najeh was instrumental in the drug arrest of Jacob Larocque of Prairie du Chien on his last day of work which was Wednesday, January 11, 2012. Najeh was deployed on a traffic stop where he alerted on the presence of narcotics in the car. Deputies discovered Methamphetamine in the car after Najeh’s indication of the presence of narcotics. Mr. Larocque ran from the vehicle during the investigation and was arrested after falling through the ice on the Wisconsin River on the north side of Boscobel. "
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Post by mink on Apr 3, 2012 23:32:03 GMT -5
This is an excellent page--and I wonder if lwhitman knows about this-- www.barnumfamily.org/genealogy/histories/Gar%20Civil%20War.htmgoing into great detail about which citizens of Prairie du Chien and neighboring towns were Civil War soldiers. Our friend Joseph Larocque was in the 48th Infantry and Baptiste L. Roque was in the 43rd! Who is this Baptiste? Baptiste Laframboise having come down all the way from Wabasha to live in PdC for a time? I'll have to check his tombstone at St. Felix. These men were pretty proud of their regiments and sometimes they were engraved on their monuments. The old men of PdC wore their Civil War medals a lot in photos! Well... it's on Baptiste's tombstone--Company A--and that was his company in the 43rd infantry...but I'm not totally certain it refers to the same regiment...or if Baptiste L. Rocque and Baptiste Laframboise Rocque are the same person. |
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Post by lwhitman on Apr 4, 2012 12:28:42 GMT -5
Hi Mink,
My direct line of the original PdC LaRocque's ended with my mother. I have spoken with the LaRocque's who now live in PdC and they are recent transplants from Minnesota. That doesn't mean they couldn't be related in some way, but I'm not pursuing that connection at this point.
You've provided more great resources! I will look through them. Thanks, again!
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Post by mink on Apr 4, 2012 13:49:24 GMT -5
Good to see you back, lwhitman. I can tell you this--I checked through Father Badin's records [he was the next priest to come to PdC after Father Dunand's visit in 1817 in order to render the sacraments], this being ca. 1827--and I see no baptismal record for a Joseph Larocque. If anything, Joseph may have been baptised by Fr. Samuel Mazzuchelli, who came to PdC somewhat later and also baptized person at Dubuque, Galena, etc. Mazzuchelli traveled around a lot because, for a time, he was the only priest affiliated with the new diocese of Dubuque under Bishop Mathias Loras. In those days, this diocese encompassed the territories that would later become the states of Iowa, Minnesota, western Wisconsin and part of Illinois--a great expanse. And Prairie du Chien was included in this diocese. I, myself, do not have Mazzuchelli's records but they must be at LaCrosse.
Lacking the baptismal record so far and going by the censuses, it is starting to seem unlikely that Joseph Larocque was born before 1830. Indeed, his age was given as 89 on the 1920 census, mandating a birth in 1832. This census also maintains he was a widower--but then where is the grave of his wife, Elizabeth--or his own, come to that?
Also, if his statement that his father was a native of Canada is true, I don't know how he can be related to those Larocques who later became the Rocques of Wabasha, MN. My suspicion is that he was not [Larocque is not an uncommon French surname] and the fact that Mary Martell sticks him on to the end of her little discourse on the Larocques indicates to me that she does not quite know how to place him except she thinks his father was called "Jean Baptiste".
The obituary indicates that the father of Joseph Larocque had been in the British Indian service and had held the rank of lieutenant. There is an actual list of such men but the only Larocques on it are Joseph and Augustin, father and son, the forebears of the Mad Rock of this thread. They were Canadians, too, and, if there had been yet another Canadian Larocque likewise employed by the British, I see no reason why he would have been omitted from the list. I have a URL for it if you would like to see it.
Did you attempt to find Joseph Larocque Sr.s death certificate at the Crawford County Courthouse? They were mandatory by the time of his death.
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Post by mink on Apr 4, 2012 14:47:52 GMT -5
There is something interesting in the records of Father Francois Vincent Badin--he married a daughter of Augustin Rocque and baptised a son of the latter in the same year.
"(Marriage) Lariviere-Peltier.— May 13, 1829, we, the un-
dersigned priest, gave the nuptial benediction to
Michel Lariviere, son of Pierre Lariviere and
Marguerite Peltier, native and resident of this
parish, and Catherine Roch, daughter [majeure]
of Augustin Roch and [space], native of this
parish and living here, in presence of Francois
Chenever, Pierre Lariviere and several others. "
"majeure" means that Catherine Rocque was of age, had reached her
majority [18?] at the time of her marriage to Lariviere. Unfortunately, the
name of her mother is not included or not legible--I do not know.
"(21) Roch, May 31, 1829, Jean Baptiste Leframboise, born in
February, 1828, of Augustine Roch and Angelique, married by a magistrate. Baptized condi-
tionally. . . . Sponsors: Olivier Charier and Celeste Courtois ; the father present."
That leaves me wondering if the Agathe, also given as a wife of Augustin Rocque, and Angelique, the mother of Jean Baptiste, are really the same women. Of course, they could be--and I'll have to go back to page 1 of this thread and look over the posts about this. However, the words "married by a magistrate" indicates to me that Fr. Badin thought this marriage not a Catholic one and in need of "rehabilitation". The father of Catherine Rocque certainly had a chance to have his marriage to her mother, if she was Angelique, blessed by a priest, Father Dunand.
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Post by lwhitman on Apr 4, 2012 16:28:13 GMT -5
I'm headed to PdC in a few weeks and will revisit the courthouse to look for more records. I didn't find Joseph Sr.'s death certificate on my first time through. I'll let you know what I find. So much to do, so little time!
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 4, 2012 18:09:39 GMT -5
here is a link to the family from which hansens says the Rocs in minnesota,etc descend from. According to Hansen, he wrote that the jean Baptiste, the son of Philipe Couillaud Dit larocquebrunne(sp.) was the father of augustin Roc born@1715,who with his first spouse sired Joseph Roc(b. 1746) and Augustine Roc(b.1744).You will note however, that jean Baptiste also had a son Joseph Roc(who would be their Uncle, in addition to at least ten-11 more siblings. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/laroc1e.htmBut that says nothing about who the father of lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque really was. She suspects it was the Jean Baptiste born in 1805--about whom nothing is known right now regarding any possible wife and children. Since there's an impasse, it's probably best to wait and see what documents she can dig up from Prairie du Chien. _________________ I apologize for my error, anddidn't mean to confuse anyone. augustine(b. 1844) and Joseph(b. 1847), the sons of Augustine, born 1715,son of Jean Baptiste(son of Philibert Couillaud dit Derocqubrunne) also had a brother Joseph born 1847, as well as at least 10 or 11 other siblings, Oneof whom was also named jean Baptiste..both brothers Joseph(b. 1846) and augustine(b. 1844)had sons named Jean Baptiste(augustine's sonhad anextra name lafromboise before the surname), as did Joseph(b.1846)'s son Joseph(b. 1782)and Joseph's grandson Joseph (III). No it does not say who Lwhitman's gggrandfather was on the maternal side, but we can scratch off Joseph and Augustine's gr. father, and their brother Jean Baptiste, as they died in Canada. We can also scratch off Augustine's son who was born in Dubuque as he wasn't even born yet when Lwhitman's Joseph was born in 1826, and madeline's son Baptiste, ashewasborn after the fact. |
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Post by mink on Apr 4, 2012 20:08:00 GMT -5
I don't know who we can scratch off anymore. This appeared earlier in this thread--and the more I keep reading the old posts the more things occur to me--
"Joseph Rocque, b. ca. 1785, bp. (as Augustin Joseph) 19 May 1798, age 13, at St. Charles Mo., (Parish records of St. Charles, MO) and died in the fall of 1835 at his trading post at Little Rock on the Minnesota River. (Sibley's papers). Based on the birthdates of his children he was probably married twice, most likely to Indian or mixed-blood women, but not of Sioux blood. (Mixed-blood script affidavit's 1855)"
Who were his children? Anyway, it struck me today that this man died at Little Rock and who was the man who began this trading post and who finally settled down there? Joseph Laframboise, the son of the famous fur-trading lady, Madeleine Laframboise! Is it possible that how Jean Baptiste Framboise Rocque got his middle name--because his father was good friends with Joe Laframboise? [After Larocque died, it would seem that Hazen Mooers took over the Little Rock post.]
It seems to me that everyone has been assuming that Jean Baptiste Laframboise Rocque was the son of the Augustin Rocque who lived at Wabasha--but one has to admit this Augustin's other children were much older. Maybe, after his own father died in 1835, Jean Baptise Laframboise was taken to Wabasha. His baptismal record says
(21) Roch, May 31, 1829, Jean Baptiste Leframboise, born in
February, 1828, of Augustine Roch and Angel-
ique, married by a magistrate. Baptized condi-
tionally. . . . Sponsors: Olivier Charier and
Celeste Courtois ; the father present."
The boy's father can have been any Augustin Rocque who was alive when he was born and Angelique was a common female name of the time. The question is--why was the boy's middle name "Laframboise"? Joseph Laframboise was married to two Sisseton sisters by whom he had three children. His third wife was called Jane Dickson , 15 years his junior. I believe they had five children. That is to the best of my recollection right now but I can easily check this.
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