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Post by hermin1 on Apr 4, 2012 20:26:30 GMT -5
Joseph laRocque(b.1746) married Therese Assiniboine 1794(motherof Joseph b. 1782,bapt. 1798) at St. Charles,MO. He married leBleue at Prairie du chien in1800. their children recorded are: Mary b. 1801,Catherine born 1804 and Jean Baptiste b. 1805. Augustine did not legalize his marriage to Angelique until 1823, and waited until 1846 for the Catholics to bless their marriage. Agatha and Angelique are two separate persons.Agatha was born in Dubuque county,@1794.Could she possibly be the mother of Jean Baptiste Lafromboise LaRock(Augustine's mother)? I don't know,but she shows up with him in that 1850 US Census for Wabasha in the Territorial Census at age 66.Could she have been the third wife of Joseph(b. 1746) and step mother to Augustine(b.1787) and his other siblings? I don't know.
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Post by mink on Apr 4, 2012 22:21:55 GMT -5
Joseph laRocque(b.1746) married Therese Assiniboine 1794(motherof Joseph b. 1782,bapt. 1798) at St. Charles,MO. He married leBleue at Prairie du chien in1800. their children recorded are: Mary b. 1801,Catherine born 1804 and Jean Baptiste b. 1805. I am guessing Augustine did not legalize his marriage to Angelique until 1832, and waited until 1846 for the Catholics to bless their marriage. Agatha and Angelique are two separate persons.Agatha was born in Dubuque county,@1794.Could she possibly be the mother of Jean Baptiste Lafromboise LaRock(Augustine's mother)? I don't know,but she shows up with him in that 1850 US Census for Wabasha in the Territorial Census at age 66.Could she have been the third wife of Joseph(b. 1746) and step mother to Augustine(b.1787) and his other siblings? I don't know. But the man I mentioned in the post previous to yours was born in 1785--not 1746. That's a big difference in age. I think the name of the wife of Augustin [of Wabasha] is very confusing. I can't understand why a native woman should have both the French names Agathe and Angelique. These names have nothing in common except they begin with the same letter. Just when I think they must be two separate women, there is some info in this thread that contradicts it. Then, it would seem, Augustin married another native woman named Helen in 1850! I seem to recall that Augustin Rocque's father had a trading post, too. Let me refresh my memory as to where it was. |
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Post by mink on Apr 4, 2012 23:29:50 GMT -5
"History of Trempealeau County" says of Augustin Rocque's father, Joseph: "According to Winnebago tradition, he had a wintering ground on a branch of Beaver Creek, not far from Galesville, and the occupancy of this region by him and a companion gave to this branch its name of French Creek."
The other Joseph Larocque was at the post on the Minnesota River where lived Joseph Laframboise--so not the same people. Mad Rock found that other Joseph, the one at the post on the Minnesota river, in Hansen. He posted about him on page 1 of this thread. He wrote:
"What follows is from "The Origins of the Roc/Rock Family of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha" Frontier Genealogy Among The Voyageurs, THE GENEALOGIST Spring 1997 Volume 11, No. 1 that was written by James L. Hansen, F.A.S.G.:
Joseph Rocque, b. ca. 1785, bp. (as Augustin Joseph) 19 May 1798, age 13, at St. Charles Mo., (Parish records of St. Charles, MO) and died in the fall of 1835 at his trading post at Little Rock on the Minnesota River. (Sibley's papers). Based on the birthdates of his children he was probably married twice, most likely to Indian or mixed-blood women, but not of Sioux blood. (Mixed-blood script affidavit's 1855)
Augustin Roc, b. Jan 1787, bp. 8 Aug 1787 at Michilimackinac. Augustin only had one wife, Angelique. But as you will see in my next reply, the 1850 census records her as Agatha. I wish I could view your ged-com file. "
I am supposing the Joseph of Little Rock was Augustin's brother, since they were born only two years apart. The elder brother has been rather neglected in this discussion so far. Perhaps you should check in Hansen for any mention of his children. We can sort this out.
Also, earlier in this thread, I asked this question:
"In 1823 Augustin Roque accompanied Major Stephen H. Long's expedition, but his services were unsatisfactory. Some time before 1826 he seems to have had a trading post at the mouth of the Buffalo River. In 1826 he moved to the present site of Wabasha. Featherstonhaugh mentions this trading house on Lake Pepin in 1835 and gives his Indian name as Wahjustahchay, or Strawberry. "
However, why was a son of his born in Dubuque in 1828?"
This last reference is to Jean Baptiste Laframboise Rocque. Maybe he was born in Dubuque because he was not the son of Augustin Rocque of Wabasha! It's also curious that lwhitman's Joseph Rocque was also supposed to have been born in Dubuque.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 1:59:27 GMT -5
the records for Crawfor d County show that Augustine Larocque legalized his marriage to Angelique in 1832. Marriages Crawford County wisconsin,by James L. hansen. Minn. Geneal. Journ. vol. 1.
____________
the marriage took place in 1823. I apologize for my goof.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 2:07:40 GMT -5
Joseph( or Augustin-Joseph) Larocque/or rock,(II) the son of Joseph laRocque(1) had 3 sons and 2 daughters: therese born@1809,Joseph (III) born @1821, Josette-charlotte- born@1819-1821, Andrew, and another son,named Jean Baptiste.(Refs:1829 Red river Census,Hudson Bay Archives; Affidavits filed for the halfBreed Scrip 1838. NARA).
In the 1835 Red River Census, Joseph(II) was living with his daughter and family,and was listed with 1 son over 16,1 under16 and a daughter over 16.(1835 Red River census.(Ref:Hudson Bay Archives).
His son Andre like his father and grandfather before him, went to work for one of the fur Trading companies.
_________________
I forgot to add thatAndre's fatherworked for several companies,Hudson Bay, American Fur Co, were two of them.
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Post by mink on Apr 5, 2012 9:17:17 GMT -5
Then who is the Joseph Rocque who died in the fall of 1835 at Little Rock on the Minnesota River? Does Hansen gave any more info on him? The Red River is far away from there, close to Canada.
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Post by mink on Apr 5, 2012 9:46:32 GMT -5
lwhitman, no matter what the various censuses say about where the parents of Elizabeth Grimard were born, the truth is most likely in their marriage record, set down by Father Badin:
(Marriage) Grimard-Courtois. — May 9, 1829, all for-
malities, &c., &c., we, the undersigned priest, gave
the nuptial blessing to Pierre Grimard, native of
the parish of St. Anne, diocese of Montreal, Can-
ada, resident of this parish five years, and Elisa-
beth Courtois, native and resident of this parish,
in presence of Franqois Chenever, . . . Rivard,
and several others. "
The Courtois family were among the earliest settlers of PdC. I also wonder if the name "Elizabeth", given on the marriage certificate of Joseph Larocque and Elizabeth Grimard is correct for Joseph's own mother. Perhaps it is an error--and the name of the mother of the bride. Seems to me to be a lot of Elizabeths!
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 11:12:05 GMT -5
Then who is the Joseph Rocque who died in the fall of 1835 at Little Rock on the Minnesota River? Does Hansen gave any more info on him? The Red River is far away from there, close to Canada. _______________ the Joseph who died at the trading post at Little rock on the Minnesota river was Joseph larocque/rocque/Rock(II) son of Joseph (I).Joseph(II)worked for various fur trading companies. he was also possibly married several times.Joseph(II) had gone to live at the Red River settlementwith his family(hence the 1829 and1835 Censuses there).But apparently returned to Minnesota and had been given a licence by Taliaferro to trade there,,shortly before he died. His son, Joseph(III) took over the trading there, and ,according to Hansen, left in Oct. 1838 with John Palmer Bourke and Lagree to go to the Red river Settlement. hansen stopped tracking him then. |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 11:46:14 GMT -5
Joseph laRocque(b.1746) married Therese Assiniboine 1794(motherof Joseph b. 1782,bapt. 1798) at St. Charles,MO. He married leBleue at Prairie du chien in1800. their children recorded are: Mary b. 1801,Catherine born 1804 and Jean Baptiste b. 1805. I am guessing Augustine did not legalize his marriage to Angelique until 1832( my goof, it should be1823), and waited until 1846 for the Catholics to bless their marriage. Agatha and Angelique are two separate persons.Agatha was born in Dubuque county,@1794.Could she possibly be the mother of Jean Baptiste Lafromboise LaRock(Augustine's mother)? I don't know,but she shows up with him in that 1850 US Census for Wabasha in the Territorial Census at age 66.Could she have been the third wife of Joseph(b. 1746) and step mother to Augustine(b.1787) and his other siblings? I don't know. But the man I mentioned in the post previous to yours was born in 1785--not 1746. That's a big difference in age. I think the name of the wife of Augustin [of Wabasha] is very confusing. I can't understand why a native woman should have both the French names Agathe and Angelique. These names have nothing in common except they begin with the same letter. Just when I think they must be two separate women, there is some info in this thread that contradicts it. Then, it would seem, Augustin married another native woman named Helen in 1850! I seem to recall that Augustin Rocque's father had a trading post, too. Let me refresh my memory as to where it was. ____________ Augustin(son of Joseph (I) and born 1787) legalized his marriage to angeliquein1823(I apologized earlier for my error). when his marriage to Angelique was blessed by the church,according to madrocque and hansen, in 1846, her name on the record was listed as Helene Wicicana Wakan. _______________ The augustin you mentioned, born 1787 was the son of Joseph (I). ___________ |
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Post by mink on Apr 5, 2012 11:50:34 GMT -5
So Joseph II did have a son named Jean Baptiste. But when was he born? Too many people by the same name! Anyway, it still doesn't make sense to me that Augustin Rocque would have named his son "Jean Baptiste Laframboise". What for?
I wonder what made Hansen so sure that the wife of Augustin, called "Helene" was still Angelique. That makes three French names for the same woman! Was it on account of some affidavit of Augustin, made later, where he still claims to be married to Angelique?
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 12:06:58 GMT -5
hansen wrote that Joseph (I) was married to 2 Mdewakantons(one of them was leBleue, and then a Sisseton. he also speculated that Joseph's son Joseph(II) was married several times, to mixed blood women, probably not Sioux. but he had nothing to confirm his speculation.
Joseph (II) in his working for the trade companies,could have indeeed been at Dubuque when jean Baptiste rocque/larocque/laRock was born in 1826, Agatha being the mother. it couldn't havebeen Joseph's father(Joseph (I))because he was dead andburied some where near prairie du chien. but toconfir it would require a birth record or a baptismal record.i am guessing the record may be atdubuque or elsewhere like St. Paul, or wisconsin?
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 12:24:41 GMT -5
neither Joseph(I) nor his brother Augustin had brother named Francois. their brothers were Philipe and Andre.
They did have an uncle named Francois but he died in Canada.
Joseph(I)'s brother Augustin had trading connections in Peoria IL, and St. Louis.Augustin died in St. Louis in 1804 and was buried there. He had a son also named Augustin,sole survivor of several children. After his father died, he filed papers for the sale of his father's land holdings in St.Louis, and returned to Peoria, where he filed to take over his fahter's holdings there.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 14:31:58 GMT -5
I checked my records on the Rocques/LaRocques/larocks/Larouches and apparently , Jean Baptiste lafromboise or Rocque or whatever, was the son of Augustin(son of Joseph (I)'s son, Augustine born@1807 and baptized 1817 by Fr. Dunand).
Acording to madrock at one time Augustine(son of Joseph (I)), and family lived for a while in Clayton county,IA. I was unable to find any records to confirm this.
The1836 Terrr. Census for Wisconsin shows a Mr Rock with 2 sons in Dubuque county of the Wisconsin Territory,but who (first name) he is is is a mystery.
As far I have been able to find, the father of Jean Baptiste LaFromboise larocque/Rock/rocque,was not married to a woman named Angelique.
There were 4 children born to Augustin(son of Augustin,born1787).I agree it is quite puzzling.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 21:23:04 GMT -5
Here's how I will be referringtothe various Josephs, augustins, and jean Baptists to keep the Joseph's straight:
Joseph I born 1746 Varennes,Can
Joseph II born 1782 and bapt. 1798 MO= son of Joseph I
JosephIII born 1821 = son of Joseph II
JosephA born@1807/1811 = son of AugustinA born 1787( son of Joseph I)Joseph A was married to Madeline robinson.
Joseph B born 1826=son of jean Baptiste?
_________
Augtustin I born Varennes Canada 1744
Augustin II= son of augustin I
Augustin IA born 1787=son of Joseph I
Augustin IIA =son of Augustin IA
___________
Jean Baptiste I=son of Joseph I
Jean Baptiste II= son of Joseph II
jean Baptiste JBA= Son of AugustinIIA
jean baptiste JJA = son of Joseph A
Jean Baptiste lafromboise= JBL son of Augustin IIA
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 5, 2012 22:27:59 GMT -5
I would not exclude the possibility that Augustin IA had liaisons with one or more women on his travels with the American fur Company which might explain this Agatha.Many of the Traders had more than one wife living with them at the same time.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 6, 2012 9:04:52 GMT -5
the information for the petitions for Joseph(II)s children for the 1838 Half Breed money was given by John Palmer Bourke, who knew Joseph (II) from prior associations with him and his son(Joseph III) in working for the Hudson bay Company(Refs:John palmer bourke employment Record,Hudson Bay Archives; Major Lawrence Taliaferro's Journal).
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Post by mink on Apr 6, 2012 12:11:44 GMT -5
This thread is getting to be as long as the Bible. Every time I re-read it I find something that intrigues me or something I should have remembered. This time I saw the affidavit of Jean Baptiste Rocque, who swore that his father was Augustin and his wife Mary Frazier. So it looks like he's the same guy as Jean Baptiste Laframboise Rocque, even though no wife is given for him at Findagrave. I think I'd better quit wondering why he had "Laframboise" for a middle name because I doubt it's possible to know.
Joseph Larocque of Prairie du Chien seems to be a case of the vanishing corpse. lwitman couldn't find a death certificate for him in Crawford County even though all indications point to the elderly gentleman having lived with his son in his last years on St. Feriole Island. I wonder if it would be possible to get the clerk at the courthouse to look up all deaths in 1923. PdC never did rise to a population above 6,000 souls, so how many could have passed away in that year? No death certificate so far and no grave. I looked through all the cemetery listings around PdC and then some--and no Joseph Larocque, Sr. Joseph Jr. and wife are in the Catholic cemetery and grandson Peter in the Protestant one--but no pioneer Joe, who had a considerable obituary in the paper! What happened to him?
I did find this in the St. Gabriel's graveyard: "Menard,Pascal
Nov;10,1845---buried Aug;26,1847,son of Pascal & Mary Laroque"
(unknown if stone)
I wonder which Mary Larocque this was. The Menards were a tragic family. Louis Menard, a young man, was the one murdered by Theophile LaChapelle.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 6, 2012 15:34:30 GMT -5
mink:
do you have access tothe US Mortality Schedules? there maybe one for Prairie du Chien for 1940 which listas the deaths in the last ten years, I think.
i don't have access tothem anymore.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 6, 2012 16:37:14 GMT -5
Mink; so far in re. to Pascal Menard's wife, 1880 US census for pr. du chien,Crawford WI has
her listed as age 57 yrs.,born WI,Parents born WI. Estimated birth year would be about 1823.
her husband Pascal was 67 yrs old then,est.birth year is about 1813. he was born WI,parents born WI
1860 US census, pr. du chien, lists
Joseph at age 45 born WI
Mary is 36 and place of birth is Red River North
children are Margaret 12 yrs
Henry 9 yrs
Elena age 7
Julia age2
______
several pages OF Fr. Dunand's record of 1817 were stuck together. Possibly Pascal's baptism may have been on one of those pages.
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Post by mink on Apr 6, 2012 18:50:59 GMT -5
Mink; so far in re. to Pascal Menard's wife, 1880 US census for pr. du chien,Crawford WI has her listed as age 57 yrs.,born WI,Parents born WI. Estimated birth year would be about 1823. her husband Pascal was 67 yrs old then,est.birth year is about 1813. he was born WI,parents born WI 1860 US census, pr. du chien, lists Joseph at age 45 born WI Mary is 36 and place of birth is Red River North children are Margaret 12 yrs Henry 9 yrs Elena age 7 Julia age2 Which Joseph is this last? Yes, I do have access to some mortality schedules but none that include the 1920's. |
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