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Post by hermin1 on Mar 25, 2012 10:26:10 GMT -5
madrock: I also found the marriage record (#284 Joseph Rock and Madeline Robinson(PdC),Certificate June 15, 1837. by J. H. Lockwood,J.P.)in that article by Hansen re. Crawford County marriages in Minn. geneal. Journ. :Volume 1. I agree with you madrock, the information by Martel is darn confusing, if not misinforming,ie. re. Francis Rock who married Genevieve Codd(the mariage record indicates the groom was Francois, and the name of the girl was Eva Cadote) to say the least. What's more,it doesn't appear that she included any references to her information. I recall that you are credited with the transcription of the information on Read's landing: www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mnwabbio/ch10.htmThe last part of the first paragrah, mentions " The other son of the elder Augustine, name not definitely known but given as M'Kendie, was in the service of the Hudson Bay Company, and subsequently lost in the wilderness there, no trace of his fate having been learned by his people". have you tried searching fthe Hudson Bay company Archives(Employee Records) for this son?the records are now available on line. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 25, 2012 17:08:38 GMT -5
Of course that marriage record for Joseph and Madeline Robinson is the civil marriage. it would not surprise me if madrock was able to find a baptismal record for madeline followed by a marriage record showing her marriage to Francois or Francois Joseph.
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Post by mink on Mar 25, 2012 21:20:43 GMT -5
I think that's the answer. There was a resident priest at Prairie du Chien by 1842--Father Joseph Cretin. Augustin Ravoux had been there for one year previously and then gone to convert the natives around the Upper Mississippi [the part that Fort Snelling supervised]. It all fits. Bishop Mathias Loras of Dubuque had stopped there in 1839 and a lot of traders and voyageurs had come from miles around to have their wives and children baptised by him. But Madeleine Robinson was already gone from the area then. Perhaps her father had not even been a Catholic in the first place--but the Rocques surely were and she was now part of their family.
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 26, 2012 6:00:59 GMT -5
lwhitman: Joseph LaRocque was assigned to be the interpreter for Wabasha's warriers in 1778, at Montreal,and a Mr. Key was assigned to be Wabasha's interpreter. Ref: Mark Diedrich. Famous Chiefs of the Eastern Sioux. 1987.Coyote Books. Minneapolis,MN.
__________
The interpretors mentioned above were assigned either at Montreal or Machilimackinac. Diedrich was not clear as to where.
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 26, 2012 6:30:18 GMT -5
Mink and MadRock: A lot happens on this site when you look away! You both provided a great deal of valuable information for me. MadRock, you noted in one of your posts that “Because the given or first names of Augustin[e] and Joseph are repeated one generation after another the article "Metis in the Prairie du Chien area" is a very confusing piece of information.” You are so right, and there is a lot of conflicting information as well. I appreciate your efforts to help me sort it out. Mink, you provided this cemetery information on: LaRogue,Joseph JR 1861---1937 Clara J. 1861---1938 LaRocque,Peter R. Jan;23,1891---Aug;26,1959,WWI Sophia E. 1891---1966 You said, “The first one is surely "LaRoque" and not "LaRogue" but doesn't seem to be your Joseph.” That is, in fact, my Joseph (GGF) known as “3-finger Joe.” He shot off two of his fingers in a hunting accident. He is the son of the 1827 Joseph (GGGF) and the father of Peter (my grandfather). I have extensive documentation on all three of them. Since last fall, I have found more clues. According to the 1856 marriage information for Joseph LaRocque and Elizabeth Grimard, Joseph’s father is listed as "G.B. LaRocque" and his mother as "Elizabeth LaRocque." In French, "J" is pronounced "zhee," which may have been recorded as "G” instead of “J.” Given the information you both provided, it seems very possible that the Jean Baptiste Roc born in 1805 may be my GGGGF. However, I have one more question for you. I have been told that families with the last name of Roc/Roque/Rocque/Rock were never referenced in any records or documents with the “La” prefix (LaRocque, LaRoque, etc.). If that is true, it would rule out Hansen’s Roc/Rock lineage. Have you found any evidence to the contrary? Thank you, again! _______________ That is not true. there are church records that contain the "La"in the names for members of this surname, and civil records as well. I am just speculating, but how the names were spelled or written probably was how the author heard the name, or the"la" was just inferred when the name was written. so this would not have ruled out Hansen's accounting of the lineages. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 27, 2012 8:30:59 GMT -5
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Post by mink on Mar 30, 2012 0:06:36 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 30, 2012 7:47:08 GMT -5
Great find mink!!!
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 30, 2012 7:55:06 GMT -5
her's link to early history of Ramsey county,ND. In the section titled Early history is mentioned one Augustin Rock who had a trading post there on Rock island at Devils Lake. www.co.ramsey.nd.us/history.htm |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 4:51:28 GMT -5
lwhitman, it puzzles me about that obit you posted, in that the deceased's parents names were not mentioned. I hope you are able to find a baptismal record for your Joseph which would give his parents names. Possibly, too, there may be a death certificate for him as well.
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 4:58:20 GMT -5
madrock: I also found the marriage record (#284 Joseph Rock and Madeline Robinson(PdC),Certificate June 15, 1837. by J. H. Lockwood,J.P.)in that article by Hansen re. Crawford County marriages in Minn. geneal. Journ. :Volume 1. I agree with you madrock, the information by Martel is darn confusing, if not misinforming,ie. re. Francis Rock who married Genevieve Codd(the mariage record indicates the groom was Francois, and the name of the girl was Eva Cadote) to say the least. What's more,it doesn't appear that she included any references to her information. I recall that you are credited with the transcription of the information on Read's landing: www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mnwabbio/ch10.htmThe last part of the first paragrah, mentions " The other son of the elder Augustine, name not definitely known but given as M'Kendie, was in the service of the Hudson Bay Company, and subsequently lost in the wilderness there, no trace of his fate having been learned by his people". have you tried searching fthe Hudson Bay company Archives(Employee Records) for this son?the records are now available on line. ____________ If Hansen is correct in his article, this mysterious "McKendie or Mckenzie was none other than the Joseph (aka Augustin-Joseph)Roc, son of Joseph roc(b. 1746).There was a McKenzie in the Fur trading business back then, don't remember his first name, and am wondering if Joseph wasn't working for,or with him, and that maybe the permit was made out in both their last names. does this make sense? |
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 11:10:25 GMT -5
This is all from Hermin:
"children of Augustin and sioux woman, baptized by Fr. Dunand were:
Louis bap. May 4,1817 Age 4 yrs.
Augustin bapt. may 5, 1817 age 10 yrs.
Francois age 6 yrs, bapt. May 5,1817
Angelique age 18mos. bapt. may 5,1817
Catherine age 8 yrs., bapt. May 5,1817
alkl by Fr. Dunand at Prairie du Chien.
Ref. Prairie Du Chien's Earliest church Records, 1817. James L. Hansen. Minn. Geneal. Journ. : 4, pp.329-342"
"No 282 Rock,Augustin and ________laJouseuse(PdC) ,they of full age. Certificate: Aug. 30, 1835. by J.H. Lockwood,J.P. (Marriages, Crawford County, vol1, p.24)."
It seems to me--just trying to clarify who some of these people were in my own mind--that the Augustin who married LaJouseuse can best be the Augustin born in 1807. Am I right or wrong?
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 11:47:03 GMT -5
"The one called Augustine was apprently born in 1787 and died in 1856." That is the Augustin Rocque I will call the "second interpreter", the one who operated all the trading posts and had settled at Lake Pepin, where Henry Sibley and company visited him in 1835 on their way to St. Peter's from Prairie du Chien. If this Augustin was only 30 years old in 1817 when he had his children baptized, there was certainly time for him to have more children--as claimed by Bunnell--who wrote that he had four sons and four daughters. In 1817, Augustin Rocque only had three sons and two daughters, the eldest, Augustin, Jr., having been born in 1807 when his father was 20.
Then along came Baptiste--or maybe Jean Baptiste--of whom Bunnell wrote: " Baptiste, son of Augustine, was at that time [of the Black Hawk War] a boy of ten or twelve years of age, and describes in a very graphic manner the conference between Gen. Dodge and Wahpashaw, in which the latter was completely won to the side of the whites, and took up arms against the Sac and Fox under Black Hawk. Not long after the conclusion of the Black Hawk war, probably about 1834 or 1835, Augustine Rocque removed to Mt. Vernon and established a trading post on the margin of the river, just within the present limits of the city of Wabasha on the west, very nearly on the site of old Fort Perrot. Here he brought his family, consisting of four sons and four daughters, and this place became his home until the day of his death, about twenty-five years since."
The Black Hawk War was fought in 1832, which makes the year of Baptiste's birth ca. 1820--and , of course, he couldn't be baptized in 1817. That makes four sons for Augustin Rocque--just as Bunnell asserted. Of course, this Baptiste Rocque cannot have been the father of anybody born as early as 1826. Nor is he the Baptiste Rock who was among the volunteers in the Winnebago War.
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 12:31:45 GMT -5
Now comes the puzzle, as described by Mary Martell:
“ Francis Laroque manied Genevieve Codd in 1841, they were rnarried by L. M. Warren, Justice of the Peace, he was related to Cadottes and traded with the Chippewas, his parent do not appear. She rnay have been a daughter of Jean Codot who owned a lot in main Village of Prairie du Chien. This couple had children: Sophia. 1841; Jean Baptiste, about 1840, records are at Eau Claire. Wis. Francis Laroque, cousin to the above, married Madaline Robertson, 1842. She was baptised February 12, 1842. They had Jean Bpts, born in 1842,, I believe at Eau claire, Wis. Mary Griffin frorn Ireland (Court House and St. Gabriels records). A Charles LaRoque operated the Rock Hotel in 1861. Adel B Laroque lived in Lynxville, Wis., in 1873. Joseph Laroque, son Jean Bpts., married Elizabeth Gremore.”
Francis Larocque was not the son of Augustin, the "second interpreter" but the latter was his uncle. Since his cousin was the Francis/Francois/Joseph who married Madeleine Robinson/Robertson, he should therefore be the son of the only brother listed for Augustin "the second interpreter", whose name was Joseph. I cannot recall or maybe never knew when this Francis who married Genevieve was born. The last statement of Martell, the one I called "disjointed" is the real mystery. Which Jean Baptiste was the father of Joseph? Maybe a man whose own father was called Joseph.
The Larocques pretty much died out at Prairie du Chien because there weren't many--unlike the situation at Wabasha and Eau Claire.
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 14:42:56 GMT -5
From lwhitman's obituary:
"During the war of 1812 the deceased’s father was a lieutenant in the British Indian department of war, so that Joseph La Roque was not only well informed on Indian traditions but he was probably as well acquainted with the early day trials and customs as any of the settlers of his day and for more than four score years and ten."
I checked every source I could find about the British Indian Department of the War of 1812--and there is even a handy list of its interpreters--but only Joseph Roque and his son, Augustin, are ever mentioned. There is nobody else whose name is even close to LaRocque.
We know who the four sons of Augustin Rocque were--and none of them are called Joseph, except the husband of Madeleine Robinson, who cannot be lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque. If the latter was born around 1826, he cannot have been the son of Joseph LaRocque, the "first interpreter" who had died some time previous. So something, some things, in that obit can't be right. I thought I knew all the old residents of Prairie du Chien who lived to be close to a century and I must say I never heard of Joseph LaRocque. If he died at Prairie du Chien in the 1920's, there really should be a death certificate in the Crawford County Courthouse. I'm sure they were mandatory by that time. I could find no record of a burial for him, though.
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 18:20:03 GMT -5
This is all from Hermin: "children of Augustin and sioux woman, baptized by Fr. Dunand were: Louis bap. May 4,1817 Age 4 yrs. Augustin bapt. may 5, 1817 age 10 yrs. Francois age 6 yrs, bapt. May 5,1817 Angelique age 18mos. bapt. may 5,1817 Catherine age 8 yrs., bapt. May 5,1817 all by Fr. Dunand at Prairie du Chien. Ref. Prairie Du Chien's Earliest church Records, 1817. James L. Hansen. Minn. Geneal. Journ. : 4, pp.329-342" "No 282 Rock,Augustin and ________laJouseuse(PdC) ,they of full age. Certificate: Aug. 30, 1835. by J.H. Lockwood,J.P. (Marriages, Crawford County, vol1, p.24)." It seems to me--just trying to clarify who some of these people were in my own mind--that the Augustin who married LaJouseuse can best be the Augustin born in 1807. Am I right or wrong? ---------------- mink:that is what James L. Hansen has concluded. This Augustin was the son of Joseph(b.@1746 in Canada, according to Hansen). |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 18:32:46 GMT -5
From lwhitman's obituary: "During the war of 1812 the deceased’s father was a lieutenant in the British Indian department of war, so that Joseph La Roque was not only well informed on Indian traditions but he was probably as well acquainted with the early day trials and customs as any of the settlers of his day and for more than four score years and ten." I checked every source I could find about the British Indian Department of the War of 1812--and there is even a handy list of its interpreters--but only Joseph Roque and his son, Augustin, are ever mentioned. There is nobody else whose name is even close to LaRocque. We know who the four sons of Augustin Rocque were--and none of them are called Joseph, except the husband of Madeleine Robinson, who cannot be lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque. If the latter was born around 1826, he cannot have been the son of Joseph LaRocque, the "first interpreter" who had died some time previous. So something, some things, in that obit can't be right. I thought I knew all the old residents of Prairie du Chien who lived to be close to a century and I must say I never heard of Joseph LaRocque. If he died at Prairie du Chien in the 1920's, there really should be a death certificate in the Crawford County Courthouse. I'm sure they were mandatory by that time. I could find no record of a burial for him, though. _______________ mink: it seems to me that you do not have a copy of James L. Hansen's article which lWhitman and mad rock keep citing from. Write to me at my email: dakounas@yahoo.com and I will send it to you. i was finally able to obtain a copy and have save it to my hard drive. when you get it, unzip it,okay? There are some questions in my mind aboutsome of Hansen's findings. it appears to me that he did some creative genealogy ona few of these Rocs or Rocks. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 18:46:29 GMT -5
From lwhitman's obituary: "During the war of 1812 the deceased’s father was a lieutenant in the British Indian department of war, so that Joseph La Roque was not only well informed on Indian traditions but he was probably as well acquainted with the early day trials and customs as any of the settlers of his day and for more than four score years and ten." I checked every source I could find about the British Indian Department of the War of 1812--and there is even a handy list of its interpreters--but only Joseph Roque and his son, Augustin, are ever mentioned. There is nobody else whose name is even close to LaRocque. We know who the four sons of Augustin Rocque were--and none of them are called Joseph, except the husband of Madeleine Robinson, who cannot be lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque. If the latter was born around 1826, he cannot have been the son of Joseph LaRocque, the "first interpreter" who had died some time previous. So something, some things, in that obit can't be right. I thought I knew all the old residents of Prairie du Chien who lived to be close to a century and I must say I never heard of Joseph LaRocque. If he died at Prairie du Chien in the 1920's, there really should be a death certificate in the Crawford County Courthouse. I'm sure they were mandatory by that time. I could find no record of a burial for him, though. _______________ mink: hansen says that the Joseph Roc born in 1746 was the father of jean Baptiste born@1805 by his third wife. Augustine,the alleged son of Joseph,born 1807 or so, also had a son,Jean Baptist born @1727 or so. He did not marry the Grimard girl. this Joseph also had a son named Joseph baptized in 1798 at St. Charle,MO, but he was baptized as Augustin-Joseph. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 31, 2012 19:26:54 GMT -5
here is a link to the family from which hansens says the Rocs in minnesota,etc descend from. According to Hansen, he wrote that the jean Baptiste, the son of Philipe Couillaud Dit larocquebrunne(sp.) was the father of augustin Roc born@1715,who with his first spouse ired Joseph Roc(b. 1746) and Augustine Roc(b.1744).You will note however, that jean Baptiste also had a son Joseph Roc(who would be their Uncle, in addition to at least ten-11 more siblings. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/laroc1e.htm |
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Post by mink on Mar 31, 2012 21:52:43 GMT -5
From lwhitman's obituary: "During the war of 1812 the deceased’s father was a lieutenant in the British Indian department of war, so that Joseph La Roque was not only well informed on Indian traditions but he was probably as well acquainted with the early day trials and customs as any of the settlers of his day and for more than four score years and ten." I checked every source I could find about the British Indian Department of the War of 1812--and there is even a handy list of its interpreters--but only Joseph Roque and his son, Augustin, are ever mentioned. There is nobody else whose name is even close to LaRocque. We know who the four sons of Augustin Rocque were--and none of them are called Joseph, except the husband of Madeleine Robinson, who cannot be lwhitman's Joseph LaRocque. If the latter was born around 1826, he cannot have been the son of Joseph LaRocque, the "first interpreter" who had died some time previous. So something, some things, in that obit can't be right. I thought I knew all the old residents of Prairie du Chien who lived to be close to a century and I must say I never heard of Joseph LaRocque. If he died at Prairie du Chien in the 1920's, there really should be a death certificate in the Crawford County Courthouse. I'm sure they were mandatory by that time. I could find no record of a burial for him, though. _______________ mink: it seems to me that you do not have a copy of James L. Hansen's article which lWhitman and mad rock keep citing from. Write to me at my email: dakounas@yahoo.com and I will send it to you. i was finally able to obtain a copy and have save it to my hard drive. when you get it, unzip it,okay? There are some questions in my mind aboutsome of Hansen's findings. it appears to me that he did some creative genealogy ona few of these Rocs or Rocks. What does Hansen's article have to do with lwhitman's obituary, which she posted here--and which cannot be correct--because a father of her Joseph Larocque, born circa 1826, cannot have been an officer in the British Indian Department? Because that description fits only to the two men I mentioned. If you, yourself, do not approve of Hansen's findings, why do I need them? All the information is in this thread already, anyway. |
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