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Post by mink on Mar 18, 2012 20:50:14 GMT -5
Holy cats--hold the phone!  I just re-checked the first page of this thread and saw that Mad Rock wrote that the Joseph Roc who married Madeleine Robinson had been baptized "Francis!! Are you sure Mad Rock? Because then a "Francis LaRocque" , cousin to the Francis who was associated with the *other* LaRoques, would have married Madeleine Robertson in 1842! That's too close to "Madeleine Robinson" to suit me. This is the rockiest historic landscape I have ever come across. |
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Post by lwhitman on Mar 18, 2012 20:56:37 GMT -5
Wow! That is a great summary of all the information, Mink. Your expertise as an historian is so valuable. I will take a close look at this and compare it to my other notes. I will also be spending time in the next 2 months in PdC, LaCrosse and Green Bay doing research. I'll let you know if I find anything! Thank you so much!
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 19, 2012 3:17:33 GMT -5
Regardless of what James Hansen wrote, the old records of St. Gabriel's are NOT there any longer, Hermin. They are in La Crosse, the seat of the diocese in which St. Gabriel's is included. I am a current scholar of the early church fathers of the Midwest. Hansen is not recent. ____________ I just cited what Hansen wrote in the introduction to his article. I don't know what the date was for when he published the article. Iam not arguing this point with anyone. |
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Post by mink on Mar 19, 2012 12:15:48 GMT -5
You can do what you please--except don't edit or modify any of my posts--like you did most of the latest ones in the "Dennis Robinson" thread. Legally, you can't edit anything anyone writes without their consent. Allow me to advise you that every message an individual writes on any board on the Internet automatically falls under their copyright. That's why another person cannot simply appropriate the post of another without quoting and attributing. The safest thing is to just make a link to the material. Despite what most people believe, *everything* you write, whether hard copy or virtual, automatically falls under your copyright. No one else has the right to add to or change a word of it. If you have something to say about what I write, nothing is preventing you from doing so in a message of your own.
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Post by mink on Mar 19, 2012 16:23:50 GMT -5
Here is something that puzzles me--and it has to do with the Larocques and Iowa. This is something Mad Rock had posted about Jean Baptiste Larocque, son of Augustin, regarding the 1850 census: "The 25 year old male, Baptiste Rocque, enumerated as head of household 34, family 34 on the 1850 United States Federal Census for District No. 1 in the County of Wabashaw Territory of Minnesota is determined to be Jean Baptiste LaFramboise Rocque who was born in February 1828 at Dubuque, baptised 31 May 1829 at Prairie du Chien according to "The Origins of the Roc/Rock Family of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha" Frontier Genealogy Among The Voyageurs, THE GENEALOGIST Spring 1997 Volume 11, No. 1 that was written by James L. Hansen, F.A.S.G. Mr. Hansen is the Reference Librarian and Genealogical Specialist, State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Hansen goes on to say he was "youngest son of Augustin Rock" in Augustin's 1855 mix-blood script affidavit." Now I think it was stated that, at some point, Augustin Rocque/LaRocque had moved to Clayton County, Iowa and that is not far from Dubuque . This Jean Baptistewas probably born around 1828. Moreover, lwhitman's Joseph Larocque, born about 1826, was also said to have been born in Dubuque! My question is--how many sons did Augustin Rocque, eventually of Wabasha, actually have? In the obituary supplied by lwhitman, it stated that the father of the deceased, Joseph Larocque, was an officer of the British--and I just assumed that was the grandfather and an error. However, "History of Trempealeau County, Wisconsin" www.archive.org/stream/historyoft....00curt_djvu.txtsays this about Augustin: "Joseph's half-breed son, Augustin, was likewise an interpreter in the service of the British. With his father he accompanied McKay's Prairie du Chien expedition of 1814 with the rank of lieutenant. At the conclusion of the war Augustin took up his home with Wabasha's Indians and established several trading posts on the upper Mississippi. The same Winnebago tradition that ascribes a camp in Trempealeau County to the father, Joseph, also ascribes a post on Beaver Creek to the son, Augustin. The Indian name of Beaver Creek, Seen-tah-ro-cah, is from St. Roque, the original French family name of this hunter. The valley was rich in beaver and elk, and hunting and trapping in this region were productive of rich results. In 1823 Augustin Roque accompanied Major Stephen H. Long's expedition, but his services were unsatisfactory. Some time before 1826 he seems to have had a trading post at the mouth of the Buffalo River. In 1826 he moved to the present site of Wabasha. Featherstonhaugh mentions this trading house on Lake Pepin in 1835 and gives his Indian name as Wahjustahchay, or Strawberry. " However, why was a son of his born in Dubuque in 1828? Well, perhaps Jean Baptiste wasn't born in 1828 but more like 1825--if he was really 25 in 1850. Is there any indication Augustin Rocque had more than one wife? Another possibility I am entertaining is that lwhitman's Joseph Rocque was not nearly as old as the obituary inferred and was the son of the above Jean Baptiste as Martel seems to indicate. But that would not tie in very well with lwhitman's Joseph having been born in Dubuque
AND lest anybody wonder why Augustin would want to name *two* sons "Joseph"--he probably wouldn't. According to the information of Mad Rock, the one married to Madeleine Robinson, for some reason called "Joseph" was actually christened "Francois".
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 20, 2012 6:15:02 GMT -5
So then his name would have been Francois Joseph or Joseph Francois?
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Post by mink on Mar 20, 2012 10:12:28 GMT -5
Bunnell weighs in: www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mnwabbio/ch10.htm"History of Wabasha County" He calls Augustine Rocque "Junior" because his father, better known as Joseph LaRocque, was also named Augustin. Bunnell says the elder LaRocque died at Prairie du Chien, but I could not find him in the Old French Cemetery, which was blessed by Father Dunand about the time Joseph LaRocque died. That is the earliest cemetery of Prairie du Chien. "Augustine, Jr., when a young man, opened a trading post at the mouth of La Riviere au Boeuf, or Beef river -- the present mouth of the Beef slough, and continued in trade there for some time, when he removed his headquarters to the west side of the Mississippi below Minneiska, at a place known as Mount Vernon in the early history of this section. Augustine Rock extended his trading operations up the Chippewa as far as the falls, and through southern Minnesota into Iowa, establishing posts along the Turkey and Cedar rivers. His trade had become quite extensive, when it was broken up by the Black Hawk war, and his interior posts abandoned. During this war Mrs. La Chapelle, a French-Sioux woman whose descendants are now living on the lot adjoining Baptiste Rocque, at Wabasha, was called upon to act as interpreter between the United States authorities under Gen. Dodge, and the Sioux chiefs. Baptiste, son of Augustine, was at that time a boy of ten or twelve years of age, and describes in a very graphic manner the conference between Gen. Dodge and Wahpashaw, in which the latter was completely won to the side of the whites, and took up arms against the Sac and Fox under Black Hawk. Not long after the conclusion of the Black Hawk war, probably about 1834 or 1835, Augustine Rocque removed to Mt. Vernon and established a trading post on the margin of the river, just within the present limits of the city of Wabasha on the west, very nearly on the site of old Fort Perrot. Here he brought his family, consisting of four sons and four daughters, and this place became his home until the day of his death, about twenty-five years since." Obviously Bunnell had interviewed Baptiste Rocque, who had quantified the number of children, which included FOUR sons. So that seems to be the answer to my question, above, as to how many sons belonged to Augustin. " His body was buried at his own request on the bluff overlooking the river and town, that his spirit might have a free outlook over the scenes of his earlier career. As before said, he was a man of note among the tribes to which he was allied by blood and marriage. When Gen. Dodge, at the conclusion of the Fort Snelling treaty with the Chippewa's, July 29, 1837, requested the Indian agent to select a delegation of Sioux and proceed to Washington, Augustus Rocque accompanied the chiefs and, in consort with Alexis Baily, Joseph Laframboise, Francis Labathe, and others, represented the fur-traders' interest. During this visit the portraits of these representatives of the far west were taken, and that of Augustine Rocque now adorns the walls of the Indian gallery at the national capitol. The Rocque family, in the person of Augustine the elder, were the first to establish trade at what is now Read's Landing, and Augustine the younger was the first permanent settler at what is now Wabasha. All these settlements were for the purposes of trade and not as actual occupants of the land. " I see on Findagrave that Jean Baptiste Laframboise Rocque is listed as having only one son, Antoine, who is also buried in the St. Felix Cemetery. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 21, 2012 8:35:49 GMT -5
madrock: here's the link to the Baptismal Records for St.Ignace, Machilimackinac(now at st. Anne's in detroit) for Augustin Roe and several siblings:father was Joseph Roe.. The Transcriber probably had trouble reading the surnames. cheboygancountymi.org/church/stanne/baptsa6.html |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 21, 2012 9:55:10 GMT -5
I wanted a look at the zip file on the Rocques but have nothing that will open it. I tried it about 5-6 years ago and it didn't work then. ______ madrock: what zip file are you referring to that you tried to open 5-6 yrs ago? maybe i could open it , if you still have the link to that file. |
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Post by madrock on Mar 22, 2012 4:31:57 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 22, 2012 6:12:14 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 22, 2012 7:04:48 GMT -5
madrock: in that wapasha page, that filementioned below, cannot beopened with any GedCom program,as it has .WK4 file extension what Windows does not recognize.
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 22, 2012 7:43:33 GMT -5
lwhitman: when you do your record searching re. Jean Baptiste also look for him as John Baptiste,or just Baptiste. sometimes a person will go by his/her middle name instead of their full name.
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Post by mink on Mar 22, 2012 12:01:05 GMT -5
Well, this is interesting. At iagenweb.org/clinton/people/clintonrivermen.htmwhich describes a Mississippi river pilot's convention of 1890, I see an Antoine Rocque of Wabasha on the roster of pilots. On this same site I also see the French/Indian ancestor of my two elder daughters, who, as it turned out, lived at Wabasha for a time. This I never knew previously although, admittedly, I am not the one who has done the genealogy of that family. If this is the same Antoine Rocque, 1853-1891, grandson of Augustin Rocque of Wabasha, then it looks like he only lived another year after that convention--and was not very old when he died. |
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Post by mink on Mar 22, 2012 13:45:56 GMT -5
Above, I quoted from "The History of Wabasha County": " His trade[that of Augustin Rocque] had become quite extensive, when it was broken up by the Black Hawk war, and his interior posts abandoned. During this war Mrs. La Chapelle, a French-Sioux woman whose descendants are now living on the lot adjoining Baptiste Rocque, at Wabasha, was called upon to act as interpreter between the United States authorities under Gen. Dodge, and the Sioux chiefs." I suspect my two older daughters are related to this Mrs. LaChapelle, as the sister of their great-grandfather on the paternal side married a Joseph LaChappelle and they lived in Wabasha. Another married a man named St. Cyr and yet another married a man named St. Jacques. The great-grandfather of my children came from a large family ________________________________ Correction: This is the Joseph LaChapelle: familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/l/a/c/Jason-Lachapelle/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0044.htmlMy girls are only related to him by marriage, though. Their relative is his wife, Josephine, nee Stocker, a descendant of Stephen Mack, a pioneer of Illinois and his native spouse, Hononegah. Josephine LaChapelle was the *aunt*, not sister, of the great-grandfather of my daughters. |
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Post by madrock on Mar 23, 2012 6:39:17 GMT -5
I was always able to open the part you printed out. It's the WinZip-ed file "larocque.zip" file at the end of what you printed out that I was talking about. All of this historical information that Nelson presents is not sourced in what we can see. I was hoping that the "zipped" file would include the documentation source from where he obtained the information. I have no intention of considering Nelson the source of any of the Wapasha or Rocque information that I would use in a family tree. He could have just made it up. If someone was trading on the St. Peters on March 23, 1832 I want to be able to say that "According to [the source] Andre Rocque was working for the American Fur Company on this specific date. If someone is a daughter or son of a Wapasha or a Rocque, I want to be able to say that "According to [church records, affadavit, etc.] a child was born to [the parents] on this specific date. |
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 23, 2012 8:52:17 GMT -5
madrock:Who is this Nelson you keep referring to?
That zip file that you couldn't open, did not have a reference cited, neither did the two links that I posted.
When you refer to that article by James L. Hansen, in the Genealogist,the correct no. of vol.11, is no. 1, not no 2.(Ref. US Library of Congress, Reference librarian).
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I didn't see any email address for whoever published the Larocque stuff at that first link, you mentioned.
I did fnd that a Francois Laroche(mispelling of the last name) married Eva Cadote,Oct. 30,1841 at the Falls of chippeway. Certificate. by L.M. Warren,J.P.(marriages,Crawford County, Vol. 2 p.71, No.190).
No 282 Rock,Augustin and ________laJouseuse(PdC) ,they of full age. Certificate: Aug. 30, 1835. by J.H. Lockwood,J.P. (Marriages, Crawford County, vol1, p.24).
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 24, 2012 9:24:06 GMT -5
I apologize for my last posting where I mentioned the correct Issue of Vol.11 in The genealogist. You had me confused, because at your website, you referred to issue no. 2. i spent several hours trying to find the article per your citation here, and finally had to call the reference librarian in Washington,DC to get the correct information.
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Post by mink on Mar 24, 2012 11:49:12 GMT -5
I did fnd that a Francois Laroche(mispelling of the last name) married Eva Cadote,Oct. 30,1841 at the Falls of chippeway. Certificate. by L.M. Warren,J.P.(marriages,Crawford County, Vol. 2 p.71, No.190). No 282 Rock,Augustin and ________laJouseuse(PdC) ,they of full age. Certificate: Aug. 30, 1835. by J.H. Lockwood,J.P. (Marriages, Crawford County, vol1, p.24). That is the same Francois I posted about earlier and, in my opinion, the name "Francois" and just who he was could cause confusion in the Larocque lineage. BTW, Lockwood was the fur trader, also Justice of the Peace. Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, is what is meant by "the Falls of Chippeway" and there was no Catholic church there--or in the entire Chippewa Valley--until 1856, although sometimes priests had gone there. So a JP had to do. I had posted, in this thread: “ Augustine Laroque rnarried a Sioux woman -their children: 1. Augustine, 1807; 2. Catherine, 1809; 3. Francis, 1811; 4. Louis, 1813; Anglic 1815; 6. Theresa, 1820. At one tirne Augustine Laroque rnoved to Clayton County, Iowa.” Now comes the son of this Augustine, Francis, and his family: “ Francis Laroque manied Genevieve Codd in 1841, they were rnarried by L. M. Warren, Justice of the Peace, he was related to Cadottes and traded with the Chippewas, his parent do not appear. She rnay have been a daughter of Jean Codot who owned a lot in main Village of Prairie du Chien. This couple had children: Sophia. 1841; Jean Baptiste, about 1840, records are at Eau Claire. Wis. Francis Laroque, cousin to the above, married Madaline Robertson, 1842. She was baptised February 12, 1842. They had Jean Bpts, born in 1842,, I believe at Eau claire, Wis. Mary Griffin frorn Ireland (Court House and St. Gabriels records). A Charles LaRoque operated the Rock Hotel in 1861. Adel B Laroque lived in Lynxville, Wis., in 1873.” The above is what Mary Martell wrote and very confusing according to the information received so far. Who is "Madaline Robertson"? One would sorely be tempted to say "Madeleine Robinson", but the latter was supposed to have been married to her Rocque husband in 1837. And just why were there two cousins named Francois Laroque--and who were their fathers? Well, one was Augustin--but who was the other? That is, if Mary Martell is correct about all this. |
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Post by mink on Mar 24, 2012 12:32:58 GMT -5
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I just re-checked the first page of this thread and saw that Mad Rock wrote that the Joseph Roc who married Madeleine Robinson had been baptized "Francis!!
