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Post by hermin1 on Apr 15, 2012 11:25:11 GMT -5
here is what I posted re. that Dubuque article.:
"If Joseph was baptized by that one missionary: @1828 before he and his parents allegedly moved to Pr.duChien, according to the link I posted, there are no extant records.
I was refering to what the author said about Fr. Lutz, and what he said about what of his records were still exisitng.
Furthermore I used the word IF in the statement, which to me means that it is not definite, and I was trying to save LWhitman from wasting her time looking for records other than where she is looking now.
This web site was set up to help the Dakota Sioux who were looking for documentation of their ancestors that would qualify them to join a major lawsuit currently in the Federal courts.
madrock is one of them, and he like others, including volunteers like myself, on this website have generously posted information that would be helpful to others doing similar searches for their ancestors.
as the deadline for entering the lawsuit has past, this website is now devoted to helping any of the Dakota Soux descendents with their search for their ancestors.
History fits into this search where it impacts on a search for a person(s)in a particular area (s)and/or a particular time frame.
If you were to look for Henry H. Sibley you would find that his children were registered as born in 3 different territories and he and his family were on censues in three different territories, even though he lived in the same place.
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Post by mink on Apr 15, 2012 12:43:49 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 15, 2012 20:15:21 GMT -5
I am concerned about that poor horse, you keep beating.and frankly I don't care what you know about Henry Sibley's white children.and from the commentsI 've received from other members they don't care either. You have a right to your opinion about that treatise of Hoffman whoever he is. I considered the author of the reference I posted, to know what he was talking about.if you don't like it,you have that right too.
Apparently madrock has the information he needs to do his timeline and Lwhitman is going to continue her search.
You can get off your soapbox now.
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Post by mink on Apr 16, 2012 10:40:45 GMT -5
I a concerned about that poor horse, you keep beating.and frankly I don't care what you know about Henry Sibley's white children.and from the commentsI 've received from other members they don't care either. You have a right to your opinion about that treatise of Hoffman whoever he is. I considered the author of the reference I posted, to know what he was talking about.if you don't like it,you have that right too. Apparently madrock has the information he needs to do his timeline and Lwhitman is going to continue her search. You can getoff your soapbox now. I see. The other members here--your invisible fans. LOL Well...if you don't know who Father M. M. Hoffmann was, the man who wrote *the* book on the pioneer priests of the Northwest, then you obviously have not done any research into this particular subject and don't have the knowledge to realize if somebody "knew what he was talking about"--or not. But that's really beside the point--as that webpage, on which you place your reliance, doesn't show Kempker offering any proof that Father Lutz was ever in Iowa. There is none, and any speculation on the part of Kempker about where any of the pioneer priests *may* have gone doesn't amount to any baptismal records from Lutz that can possibly assist anybody in their Iowan genealogical quest. Right? The bio of Hoffmann can be found here: www.encyclopediadubuque.org/index.php?title=HOFFMANN%2C_Mathias_M._Rt._Rev. As for Sibley, his daughter by a native wife had no descendants who lived, but why you should write with such disdain about the man's white children seems odd to me. You have no Native American blood ties whatsoever, not even a connection through a husband and children--like myself. You are just plain white--period. |
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Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Apr 16, 2012 18:49:05 GMT -5
Mink,
You know not of what you speak. Despi is Blood relations to the Kitto family.
Despi is very knowledgable on Dakota genealogy. I doubt you are.
Respectfully,
Curtis Mike Kitto.
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Post by mink on Apr 16, 2012 21:48:32 GMT -5
here in Sioux City, we still have Greeks who still speak only greek,but theyare up in years. greek was theprimary Language in our house. My mom"butchered" what little she learned of english.an example, she called my sister's husband "a Crounch"(her rendetion of the word grouch) . My dad read wrote and understood english,but would only speak Greekat home,and where he worked. Well, sir--I didn't write this. Despi did. But I certainly would like to know how someone whose parents both spoke Greek at home can be "related by blood" to Indians. That would be interesting. Was it via Andreas? Was it via Eftihia? The problem you and I and others have encountered is understandable re. ages of the native americans we are researching. They didn't tell time back then, like we whites have done for many many years.They would associate a birth, or death, etc. with some event that occurred @ that time.. One of my mentors, suggested to me that I give a leeway of + or - 3-5 yrs in re. to the age of a mdewakanton or sioux Indian on a census roll. So she was just blowing smoke about being white? Wow. As for "Dakota genealogy", since I've been here, most of the inquiries have been about metis, the mixed-bloods. Are you telling me I don't know anything about them--didn't help anybody? |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 17, 2012 3:45:37 GMT -5
madRock, you may have misinterpreted my statement re, taking Hansen's assumption as a grain of salt,and I must apologize for not being clearer. I was referring to Hansen's statement re. the cenus takers in Minnesota Territory in 1836. You mentioned that the census taker back then was Alexis Bailey, who knew the Rocks well. which would make sense that he would not have actually visited the occupants in the house then. I have no disagreement with Mr. hansen's findings. He is tops in my book,re. genealogy. the information re. the Joseph rock baptized in st. charles Missouri...is from Hansen's article, that you have been quoting from. That one page Gedcom print-out has had me scratching my head. I am glad you posted your information and that of Mr. hansen. it has helped clear up my confusion re. your rock family. hermin1: Sorry, got busy on another family line. Had a couple good pieces of info come in and I wanted to stay with it while it was hot. Still need to get Hansen's commentary on Joseph Jack Frazer typed up and added to the Frazer? Fraizer? thread. I've been trying to find another copy of Hansen's work. I don't want to let go of my copy. Will be back later . . . . after the weekend. All the Best. __________ madrock: i know this is late,but don't worry about that extra copy. I was able to find a copy of the article. let me know if you need an extra copy and I will send it to you by Email. |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 17, 2012 5:01:57 GMT -5
i wonder when LeBleu died. I don't know but Mad Rock indicated she was born in 1775 but her husband Joseph Roc[que] b. 13 Sep 1746--also according to Mad Rock. That is a very big difference--29 years. Can this be right? I indicated, in another post on this thread, that when her father, Wabasha, and Joe Larocque went to attack St. Louis in 1780, La Bleu would have been no more than five years old. So she couldn't have married Larocque until around 1790 when she was 15--or maybe she was even younger. I wonder where this birth year of 1775 was ascertained.
La Bleu was supposed to have been the mother of Augustin Rocque (1787-1856). It doesn't compute. Unless La Bleu was no more than 12 when she gave birth to Augustin! I guess it's possible.
Is it possible, too, that La Bleu can have been the same woman as Agatha? I think in the 1850 census at Wabasha there was an Agatha, who gave her age as 66, living with a Jean Baptiste Rocque, a young man. Mad Rock wondered why she was with him and not Augustin. Agatha--Angelique--too many names for the wife of Augustin Rocque! Anyway, in 1850 even Augustin Rocque of Wabasha didn't give his age as old as 66 for the census--even though he ought to have been 63 by then. What if this Agatha was erring on the young side and was really more like 75? That would have been La Bleu's age in 1850 if she was really born in 1775.
This is what Mad Rock wrote much earlier in this thread:
"Regarding lines 21 and 22 of the "snapshot" image:
The 25 year old male, Baptiste Rocque, enumerated as head of household 34, family 34 on the 1850 United States Federal Census for District No. 1 in the County of Wabashaw Territory of Minnesota is determined to be Jean Baptiste LaFramboise Rocque who was born in February 1828 at Dubuque, baptised 31 May 1829 at Prairie du Chien according to "The Origins of the Roc/Rock Family of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha" Frontier Genealogy Among The Voyageurs, THE GENEALOGIST Spring 1997 Volume 11, No. 1 that was written by James L. Hansen, F.A.S.G. Mr. Hansen is the Reference Librarian and Genealogical Specialist, State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Hansen goes on to say he was "youngest son of Augustin Rock" in Augustin's 1855 mix-blood script affidavit.
Line 21, page 4 of the 1850 census further gives Baptiste's profession or trade as a Farmer, that he was born in Dubuque, Iowa, and that he could not read & write. No color (White, Black or Mullato) description was stated.
Line 22, page 4 of the 1850 census lists Agatha Rocque, a 66 year old female was born in Dubuque, Iowa, and that she could not read & write. No color (White, Black or Mullato) description was stated. This is assumed to be Angelic (or Angelique) and a misspelling by the enumerator. It couldn't be a misunderstanding because the enumerator, Alexis Bailly knew Augustin for many years. [I thought Agatha & Angelique might be variants of one or the other, but nothing found to verify it)"
Read more: oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=requesthere&action=display&thread=2358&page=1#ixzz1rkIyxIet______________ Joseph(I) married LeBleu in 1800. their children were Mary,Jean Baptiste, and Catherine.(Ref. Telus Planet website). Joseph(II)'s mother was Therese Assiniboine,whom his father married in 1894.Hansen mentions leBleu born @ the 1870's. Mark Diedrich cited a reference by a German observer at the meeting of Wabasha and the Governor of Montreal ,who had noted that Joseph(I)had been held a captive of the Wabasha Band for several years. |
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Post by mdenney on Apr 17, 2012 9:07:13 GMT -5
I think here is a issue on WHO KNOWS MORE...let us think on this. The Site Name is: Oyate Research Center...Does it entail... frivolousness and augmentative methods of learning, understanding? No! It clearly indicates a place to help and make friends, find relatives...which it has done thus far. Gather your wits about you...share your knowledge and be non-ominous to one another...point here is to gather in a good way! The reason why we lasted is, because people on here shared and understood this purpose...Don't let your supreme knowledge blind you...instead, take it and use it for good.
I am asking every one to please be nice and do what you are good at with out, slander or directing put downs. Instead think of this as a way to have a cup of coffee and communicate with one another...I my self will walk away...and have done this on facebook to a few people...it is the way it is. So...please reassert your purpose here...I am the one that acts crazy on here...heres the ticker...I like having you all here...I am not going to allow it to continue...your hurting your self...and I don't like this. Peace my friends. This is what it is about...PEACE! If she is not a Dakota or this and that...then the Native language says to be allies and friends...Kola...Koda...like this...in a good way. If you are Native, then you understand this...if you are of another Nation, then you understand this...No more she hurt me...she hit me first or I want the pink dress...not you! I want for the Oyate to see and receive information that is true and helpful. Please? I am fair and so don't make me choose...because I will.
The purpose for being here is to HELP. I don't think OYATE of all kind want to see battles going on...or do they...we live in a different world today. You are smart and know things...dont let a cheesy post ruin it for your people... The front of the main page, scroll down and see how many visit here...they are looking and reading...think! I am no one special here. I do run the site and have applied to you, a position of importance...you are needed...don't ruin it by saying her box of cheese is bigger or better then mine...just think about, maybe she has more kids or maybe this is her destiny...can you see this? You are Elders and are important to all.
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Post by mink on Apr 22, 2012 21:19:50 GMT -5
In 1824 Congress passed a bill requiring that Indian Agents choose the spots where they thought trade with Indians would be suitable. This did not sit very well with the traders, who did not want to be limited and so..."May 6, 1825 a protest against the law locating traders by the Indian Agents came from Prairie du Chien and was signed by Joseph Rolette, Dennis Robinson, J.H. Lockwood, P. Hurtebise, Alexis Bailly and Alexander Roc...." Who was Alexander Roc? Probably the same person as Augustin Rocque. I have seen both Alexander and Augustin being part of the delegation to Washington in 1837: " After conclusion of another treaty with the Chippewa at Fort Snelling July 29, 1837 allowing whites to settle on the west side of the Mississippi River, General Dodge requested the Indian agent Taliaferro to select a delegation of Sioux and proceed to Washington to finalize terms of the treaty. Augustin Rocque accompanied the chiefs in consort with Alexis Bailly, Joseph LaFramboise, and Francois LaBathe. Along with them were H.H. Sibley, Alexander Rocque, and Alexander and Oliver Faribault representing the fur traders’ interests." www.wabasha.org/quality-of-life/wabashas-chronological-history-heritage/Pierre Hurtebise [also spelled "Hortobese"] was a nephew of old Chief Wabasha and built a shanty on the south side of the Zumbro River. |
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Post by mink on Apr 23, 2012 15:29:36 GMT -5
lwhitman, I hope you are still reading here. I managed to have a look at the obituary of Joseph Larocque, Jr., dated Sept. 30, 1937. It states that Joseph [and in the next year his wife, Clara] was interred in the St. Gabriel's Churchyard, just as were his two children who died in infancy and "his parents before him"--in what the obit calls "a family lot". So there's another indication that old Joseph Larocque and his wife, Elizabeth, should have burial records at St. Gabriels--regardless of their absence from the online cemetery lists of Crawford County. Have you found them? I could only find Joseph and Clara in the St. Gabe's yard, but they may be the only ones who have stones. I don't know. If you don't have this obit, I can give it here. I was hoping it would say something informative about Joe. Jr.'s parents but there was the very interesting "He was born Nov. 4, 1861, on the second floor of the Astor Fur building on the river front..." I'm pretty sure I have an old photo of this building on the corner of Boilvin and Water Sts., on the register of historic buildings, described here, where it says the second floor was sometimes used as a residence: pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NHLS/Text/66000800.pdfHere are an old picture of the building www.hpdb.org/pictures/2416and the new, restored, one for tourists: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astor_Fur_WarehouseAt least the second story couldn't be flooded in the time of high water! Joe Jr., as a young man, worked on the unique pontoon railroad bridge and was responsible for keeping the track level according to the rising and falling of the Mississippi--and I have an old photo of that, too, which may include Joe. Joe Jr. was survived by four children--William Larocque and Edna Collins of St. Paul and Peter Larocque and Mrs. Ben Karnopp of PdC. |
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Post by mink on May 10, 2012 21:29:05 GMT -5
"The Wisconsin Creoles" is out of print but I suppose one should allow it to weigh in on the subject of the Larocques. I don't own a copy but a contact of mine does and here he quotes from the book:
"There were La Rocques trading on the Mississippi and on Lake Pepin by 1780. Basil La Rock (b. circa 1765) married Catherine Brunette ()b. circa 1780) daughter of Jean Baptiste Brunette and started a family at Green Bay. He and his son Francois, who owned a Prairie du Chien farm at that time, were operating farms for John Lawe in 1818. Shortly after that, Pascal La Roche arrived with his 75 year old grandfather, Sons Pierre and Amable and his two daughters.
The Pascal children were: #1. Angela (b. cirtca 1795) married as her first husband, Francois Lavigne; She married her second husband, Jean Baptiste Lemiry in 1828 and had two children: Joseph and Lewis. Angela married her third husband, Francois Gagnon in 1834.
#2, Francois (b. circa 1798) married Mary Provencal and had a daughter; Charlotte married Joseph Champeau.
#3, Genevieve married Francois Dagenait.
#4. Charlotte married Moses Hardwick.
#5. Rosalie married Michel Harteau in 1834.
#6. Therese married Jesse Brunette.
#7. Mary married as her first husband Louis Fizette Jr. in 1836, then she married Peter Allis.
#8. Marie married Nicolas Vieau.
#9. Ursula married Michel Douville.
#10. Peter married Mary Ann La Frambois.
#11. Amable
#12. Sophie
**************************************************
**
Pascal La Rock married Mary Carbonneau in Green Bay in 1824. They had a son Peter.
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A Mary La Roche drew payment as a mixed blood Menominee in 1849.
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The Basil La Rock family bought lot #25 on the East side of the Fox River, which is now the North part of East De Pere."
I don't know how it all might apply but this adds to the Larocques who had connections to Prairie du Chien.
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Post by hermin1 on May 11, 2012 14:44:14 GMT -5
The information may not tie in with madrock's family,but when i started my search for the family of madrock several years ago, I came across the same information, and it helped to sort out who belonged in madrock's family ancestors and who didn't. And some of the names above, not of mad rocques family,are relevant to those who are searching for their ancestors.
i saved the info i found and have used it to help others who tie to some of the above people.
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Post by mink on May 14, 2012 11:52:04 GMT -5
This is what I received today from a contact at the Diocese of La Crosse:
"Date of Burial: December 7, 1923
Name: Joseph La Roque
Age: 96
Disease: Old age
Cemetery: St. Gabriel's
Priest: F. J. Rudden S.J.
Mrs. Elisabeth La Roque, age 67, died of pneumonia, was buried on 3 May
1907 in St. Gabriel's Cemetery. It lists the gravesite as: Wd I, Row
III, Lot 1 (16 x 18), so I would assume that Joseph was probably buried
at that same site. Neither one gives the names of the parents.
Joseph Laroque (Jr.) married Clara Gery on 2 January 1888 - parents are
Joseph Laroque & Elisabeth Grimore, and Daniel Gery & Elisa Spires. I
could not find a marriage record for Joseph Sr., so it appears they were
probably married before they emigrated. There was a Francois Roc
marriage in 1842, and a Henry Rock marriage in 1855, but neither one
gives the names of the parents so not possible to speculate on them."
The contact did not realize that Joseph Larocque Sr. and Elizabeth Grimard had a civil marriage at Prairie du Chien. So, I guess, that is the end of the search for the parents of
Joe Sr. at the diocese archives. Since lwhitman could not find a death certificate for the latter at the Crawford County courthouse [although perhaps persistence could pay off there, as they were mandatory by the time he died] there may be no way left to confirm the names of the parents of Joseph Larocque, Sr.
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Post by hermin1 on May 14, 2012 14:02:30 GMT -5
LWhitman posted the obituary from the newspaper,which I hope had the date of the issue. Together with the burial record you were able to find, will give her the date of his death. At least she has this information., plus the marriage record(civil). It is frustraing, after all the searching done to not be able to find the parents. I have experienced this many times with some of the families I have helped.
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Post by kjmontez on May 26, 2012 6:25:44 GMT -5
I have an original booklet "Our People...The Indians" written by Mary Martell in 1950's. It contains many names I see here in detail. I have also other source info to back up many of the dates. Copies of census, marriages etc.
Basil/Bazil Gagne/Gagnier/Gonyier married Josette LaRoque/Rock/LaRock Jan. 15 1846 in Prairie du Chein, Wisconsin.
Anything else just let me know.
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Post by hermin1 on May 26, 2012 12:00:53 GMT -5
kjmontez: Welome to our website.
thank you for your helpful information.
We welcome any information you have to share.
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Post by lwhitman on Jun 1, 2012 16:02:15 GMT -5
Checked out for a while. Great new information! I am so excited about some of the new details.
I found Joe Jr. and Clara's gravesite in Prairie, and there are plots next to theirs without headstones. You confirmed my thought that they may belong to Joe Sr. and his wife.
I am also thrilled with your April 24th post, mink. Woo hoo!
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Post by lwhitman on Jun 1, 2012 16:15:34 GMT -5
By the way, mink, you offered to share that obit for Joe Jr. I would appreciate it! Where did you find it?
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Post by sara on Aug 23, 2013 10:07:50 GMT -5
Hi hermin,
Do you have the reference for the trading post at Rock Island?
Who located it around Spirit Lake or were is that info.
Thanks,
Sara
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