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Post by mink on Apr 8, 2012 14:36:34 GMT -5
I hope I didn't butcher Greek too much! Growing up in St. Paul, I seemed always to be around Greeks and couldn't help but learn simple phrases--which I probably didn't pronounce too well. People even mistook me for Greek until I opened my mouth. One thing I know perfectly is the Greek alphabet, though. Ironically, when I moved to Los Angeles, I fell in with Persians, the ancient enemies of the Greeks. Then I learned some Farsi because, in my neighborhood, one heard more Farsi than English. No matter--I love languages.
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Post by mink on Apr 8, 2012 16:14:29 GMT -5
I missed that info re. who Mrs. Josephine laRocque's firstspouse wastoo. I spent 4 hours last night searching for heron google. then I remembered that in one of those censues that listed Marie or Mary(larocque) ,wife of Pascal(peter) Menard, she was listed as born Red River north. thoe early censues are in the Hudson Bay Company's archives,and You have topay to access them. I just caught something here now. In one census it states that the mother of Joseph Larocque was born in "British America". That Red River area was British America once. However, the same census also states that his father was born in Canada. Who was that masked man??? |
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Post by lwhitman on Apr 8, 2012 17:27:16 GMT -5
Thanks, mink, for the info on Josette. Darn.
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Post by mink on Apr 8, 2012 19:48:31 GMT -5
Thanks, mink, for the info on Josette. Darn. I've got to say it--I am still haunted by that obituary. Quoting from it: "He was born in Dubuque, May 2, 1826, and in 1828 his parents moved to Prairie du Chien when this section was practically a wilderness and the entire white population of the state less than 12,000, but there were Indians everywhere. In childhood his playmates were mostly Indian children for his father, who was interpreter for the Sioux away back in 1778, first came into the country for the British and was with them when Wabash made his attack on St. Louis in 1780. During the war of 1812 the deceased’s father was a lieutenant in the British Indian department of war, so that Joseph La Roque was not only well informed on Indian traditions but he was probably as well acquainted with the early day trials and customs as any of the settlers of his day and for more than four score years and ten." The one who still fits the best to that description is old Joseph Larocque, the one who married La Bleu and heaven knows who else. The one who made the attack on St. Louis in 1780 was Wabasha I. Joseph Larocque, that same interpreter, was his son-in-law. It is well-known that this Joseph Larocque was a British sympathizer and the British were at St. Louis, as well. Their commander was Hesse. It seems incredible that Joseph Larocque could have sired lwhitman's Joseph--but who knows for sure when the man died? Mad Rock claimed 1817 but he is not here to be asked where he got his information. Also, if La Bleu was born in 1775--she was only 5 years old when Larocque went to St. Louis as interpreter! BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, the one who went to the Red River was the man's son, Augustin Rocque. From the thread; "In 1823 Augustin Roque accompanied Major Stephen H. Long's expedition, but his services were unsatisfactory. Some time before 1826 he seems to have had a trading post at the mouth of the Buffalo River. In 1826 he moved to the present site of Wabasha. Featherstonhaugh mentions this trading house on Lake Pepin in 1835 and gives his Indian name as Wahjustahchay, or Strawberry." As has been noted, Augustin held the rank of lieutenant, too. As for Major Stephen H. Long, Wiki says this: "Later, in 1823 he [Long] led additional military expeditions into the United States borderlands with Canada, exploring the Upper Mississippi Valley, the Minnesota River, the Red River of the North and across the southern part of Canada. During this time he determined the northern boundary at the 49th parallel at Pembina." Whoever wrote that obituary never knew what he started! But can anyone take so much as a grain of truth from it? Did Joe Larocque Sr. take the history of some other Larocques and pass that off to his son as the history of their own family? Now the Red River area abounds with Larocques. There is a book "Early History of North Dakota" archive.org/stream/earlyhistoryofnor00loun/earlyhistoryofnor00loun_djvu.txtthat even names some early ones: "Other employees at Fort Pembina in 1801, or about that period, who conducted the work of the post, were Jean Baptiste Le Due (possibly Larocque), Joachim Daisville, Andre La Grosser, Andre Beauchemin, Jean Baptiste Larocque, Jr., Etienne Roy, Francois Sint, Joseph Maceon, Charles Bellegarde, Joseph Hamel, Nicholas Pouliotte and Joseph Dubois — all of Henry's Red River Brigade. " "The population of the Red River country in 1805 is given by Henry as seventy-five white men, forty women, mixed-blood, and sixty children, mixed- blood. The women were the wives of the traders and their men, all Indian and mixed-bloods, and the children were all mixed-bloods, although returned as whites. The Indian population was given as 160 men, 190 women and 250 children. In 1819 and 1820, the grasshoppers again destroyed the crops, leaving the colonists entirely dependent upon Pembina for subsistence. Provencher spent
the winter of 1819-20 at Pembina. Almost every one had left St. Boniface for the winter. In 1820 Provencher was appointed coadjutor bishop of Quebec with the title of Bishop of Juliopolis, and May 12, 1822, was consecrated. He returned
to St. Boniface in August, 1822, after an absence of two years from the colony, to find that the Hudson's Bay Company had insisted upon the withdrawal of the priests from Pembina, for the reason that it was on the American side. This was
determined by observations made by David Thompson for the North-West Company in 1798, and confirmed in August, 1823, by Maj. Stephen H. Long, the priests having withdrawn the previous January. "
Now comes the exodus:
"Some of the settlers after the withdrawal of the priests founded the parish of St. Francis Xavier, and others went to Fort Snelling, and various points in the United States..."
Grasshoppers, floods, caused many to leave the Red River. |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 9, 2012 11:42:11 GMT -5
Mink: The Complete Metis History atTelus Planet.com mentions a mass exodus of many families from the Red River Settlementto fort snelling and even lists their names,but I don't Remember the exact date. there are some larocques buried at the Metis Cemetery in or near Pembina.ND. some of them I believe are listed for that Cemetery at find a Grave. Ifound a web site a few yearsago by typing Red River Marriagesinto Yahoo. It lists the Frenchmen who married there,with the marriage date ((but no brides listed). it has some other good info also. here is the link: members.shaw.ca/hjarmstrong/RRMission.htm |
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Post by mink on Apr 10, 2012 11:41:15 GMT -5
Hermin, do you have that article by Hansen "Crawford County Wisconsin Marriages 1816-1848"? It might be informative to find the record of the marriage of Marie Larocque to Pascal/Peter Menard in order to find out who her father was. If these two were married in Crawford County, that is. They probably were because the Menards had been in Prairie du Chien for quite some time and the mother of the boys was the famous "medicine woman", Marie Anne or "Mary Ann Menard". lwhitman could look for the marriage in the St. Gabriel's records at La Crosse. If the father of Marie, daughter of Josephine/Josette Larocque, is a Jean Baptiste then I would say that would just about solve the mystery. Mary Martell had to get her info about Joseph Larocque, husband of Elizabeth Grimard, being the son of a Jean Baptiste from some record.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 12:08:32 GMT -5
mink I will check my Marriage files.
yes i have the article; No parents are listed for marie or pascal.
#225 pascal menard and Marie LaRocque(PdC).Certificate May 11,1839 byJ.H. Lockwood,J.P. (vol.1,p.12).
Ref. Minn. Geneal. Journ. vol. 1 p.52
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 12:31:51 GMT -5
madrock was referring to Hansen's article again, apparently Joseph(I) must have applied for Land allotment(for his service to the govt.during the war of 1812?), and the Canadian govt. on his record of application, noted that he was deceased.
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Post by mink on Apr 10, 2012 12:43:03 GMT -5
mink I will check my Marriage files. yes i have the article; No parents are listed for marie or pascal. #225 pascal menard and Marie LaRocque(PdC).Certificate May 11,1839 byJ.H. Lockwood,J.P. (vol.1,p.12). Ref. Minn. Geneal. Journ. vol. 1 p.52 Okay, thanks. 1839 was the last year of Prairie du Chien without a resident priest until this very day. Father Augustin Ravoux arrived in 1840 and, at some point thereafter, this marriage can have been what they used to call "rehabilitated". But I would think Hansen would have mentioned that. What does he say--that he just consulted the county records or also those of St. Gabriel's? As I have not delved into genealogy until I came here, I do not have these articles. Yesterday, though, somebody outbid me on Ebay for a rare volume on PdC history by only a few cents. Bleh! |
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Post by mink on Apr 10, 2012 12:58:09 GMT -5
madrock was referring to Hansen's article again, apparently Joseph(I) must have applied for Land allotment(for his service to the govt.during the war of 1812?), and the Canadian govt. on his record of application, noted that he was deceased. Interesting. I did not really believe that Joseph could possible have been the father of lwhitman's Joseph. When I really analyzed this Joseph's obituary I concluded that the exploits attributed to the "father" of the deceased, really belonged to two separate men--Joseph I and his son, Augustin. I just wondered how it was known when Joseph I died.
I doubt either Joseph I or Augustin, his son, can have been the actual father of the deceased of the obit, but I am not yet discounting that Joseph Larocque of Prairie du Chien can have been related to them. |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 18:47:50 GMT -5
I doubt that augustin or his son augustin did the siring. I believe it was Jean Baptiste(Son of Joseph I). and the writer of that obituary did't know his genealogy or history that well, or he used literary license. in writing that obit.It is funny that it didn't mention where the body was interred.Acopy of the obit,I understand is at the wis. State His. soc. Library on Microfilm.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 18:52:51 GMT -5
it may bein Father Ravoux's records re the Marriage orr even that fr. Loras'srecords. I will check them.
Update:
No record of the chiurch rite in either of the two catholic priests's records.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 19:11:44 GMT -5
i wonder when LeBleu died.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 10, 2012 19:17:11 GMT -5
he refered to the records of St. ignace for some of his info re. marriages and baptisms of the rocs/rocques/etc., and aldo his own article in the Minn.genealog. Journal, and St. Felix and St. Gabriel's and some records at Galena and St. Croix?
_------------
correction: I meant the records for St.Croix and Galena, those for St. Gabriels, and the ones for St. Felix.
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Post by mink on Apr 10, 2012 19:45:59 GMT -5
it may bein Father Ravoux's records re the Marriage orr even that fr. Loras'srecords. I will check them. Update: No record of the chiurch rite in either of the two catholic priests's records. How did you get hold of these records? Wisconsin Historical Society? Actually, I had forgotten about Bishop Loras rendering sacraments at Prairie du Chien in 1839 , as he had come there in order to lay the cornerstone of St. Gabriel's--but he wasn't there very long. [This church, however, took a very long time to finish.] You might check the records of the successor of Ravoux, Father Joseph Cretin. He was at St. Gabriel's longer than Ravoux, who left for Minnesota in 1841. If the Menards didn't have their civil marriage blessed during Cretin's tenure--they probably never did. Addendum: Even though Bishop Loras was only at PdC for a few days, he was busy! There were 52 confirmations, 19 baptisms, and 24 marriages were blessed--according to a Catholic newspaper of the era. The paper also stated that there were 700 Catholics in the area, mostly all French. |
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Post by mink on Apr 10, 2012 20:36:46 GMT -5
i wonder when LeBleu died. I don't know but Mad Rock indicated she was born in 1775 but her husband Joseph Roc[que] b. 13 Sep 1746--also according to Mad Rock. That is a very big difference--29 years. Can this be right? I indicated, in another post on this thread, that when her father, Wabasha, and Joe Larocque went to attack St. Louis in 1780, La Bleu would have been no more than five years old. So she couldn't have married Larocque until around 1790 when she was 15--or maybe she was even younger. I wonder where this birth year of 1775 was ascertained.
La Bleu was supposed to have been the mother of Augustin Rocque (1787-1856). It doesn't compute. Unless La Bleu was no more than 12 when she gave birth to Augustin! I guess it's possible.
Is it possible, too, that La Bleu can have been the same woman as Agatha? I think in the 1850 census at Wabasha there was an Agatha, who gave her age as 66, living with a Jean Baptiste Rocque, a young man. Mad Rock wondered why she was with him and not Augustin. Agatha--Angelique--too many names for the wife of Augustin Rocque! Anyway, in 1850 even Augustin Rocque of Wabasha didn't give his age as old as 66 for the census--even though he ought to have been 63 by then. What if this Agatha was erring on the young side and was really more like 75? That would have been La Bleu's age in 1850 if she was really born in 1775.
This is what Mad Rock wrote much earlier in this thread:
"Regarding lines 21 and 22 of the "snapshot" image:
The 25 year old male, Baptiste Rocque, enumerated as head of household 34, family 34 on the 1850 United States Federal Census for District No. 1 in the County of Wabashaw Territory of Minnesota is determined to be Jean Baptiste LaFramboise Rocque who was born in February 1828 at Dubuque, baptised 31 May 1829 at Prairie du Chien according to "The Origins of the Roc/Rock Family of Prairie du Chien and Wabasha" Frontier Genealogy Among The Voyageurs, THE GENEALOGIST Spring 1997 Volume 11, No. 1 that was written by James L. Hansen, F.A.S.G. Mr. Hansen is the Reference Librarian and Genealogical Specialist, State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Hansen goes on to say he was "youngest son of Augustin Rock" in Augustin's 1855 mix-blood script affidavit.
Line 21, page 4 of the 1850 census further gives Baptiste's profession or trade as a Farmer, that he was born in Dubuque, Iowa, and that he could not read & write. No color (White, Black or Mullato) description was stated.
Line 22, page 4 of the 1850 census lists Agatha Rocque, a 66 year old female was born in Dubuque, Iowa, and that she could not read & write. No color (White, Black or Mullato) description was stated. This is assumed to be Angelic (or Angelique) and a misspelling by the enumerator. It couldn't be a misunderstanding because the enumerator, Alexis Bailly knew Augustin for many years. [I thought Agatha & Angelique might be variants of one or the other, but nothing found to verify it)"
Read more: oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=requesthere&action=display&thread=2358&page=1#ixzz1rkIyxIet |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 11, 2012 10:46:06 GMT -5
I am thinking that he is Agatha's son or stepson.Remember what I posted earlier, about these French traders having more than one wife?
The other possibility is Joseph (II) being the father(see posting on page12).The ages given are approximate.
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Post by mink on Apr 11, 2012 11:28:17 GMT -5
A pretty old mother for Jean Baptiste! I suppose it's possible and not as strange as a woman alternately being called Agatha and Angelique, this last being the name of Jean Baptiste's mother on his baptismal record. It doesn't make sense. Oh, well...more than one thing about this Larocque family doesn't quite add up.
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 11, 2012 13:21:48 GMT -5
it may bein Father Ravoux's records re the Marriage orr even that fr. Loras'srecords. I will check them. Update: No record of the chiurch rite in either of the two catholic priests's records. How did you get hold of these records? Wisconsin Historical Society? Actually, I had forgotten about Bishop Loras rendering sacraments at Prairie du Chien in 1839 , as he had come there in order to lay the cornerstone of St. Gabriel's--but he wasn't there very long. [This church, however, took a very long time to finish.] You might check the records of the successor of Ravoux, Father Joseph Cretin. He was at St. Gabriel's longer than Ravoux, who left for Minnesota in 1841. If the Menards didn't have their civil marriage blessed during Cretin's tenure--they probably never did. Addendum: Even though Bishop Loras was only at PdC for a few days, he was busy! There were 52 confirmations, 19 baptisms, and 24 marriages were blessed--according to a Catholic newspaper of the era. The paper also stated that there were 700 Catholics in the area, mostly all French. __________ what records are you asking me about,in re to how I got them? i guess we will never know if pascal and marie had their marriage blessed by the church. it is moot to this discussion. |
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Post by hermin1 on Apr 11, 2012 13:46:54 GMT -5
A pretty old mother for Jean Baptiste! I suppose it's possible and not as strange as a woman alternately being called Agatha and Angelique, this last being the name of Jean Baptiste's mother on his baptismal record. It doesn't make sense. Oh, well...more than one thing about this Larocque family doesn't quite add up. _____________ As I recall, madrock was puzzled by this Agatha also.The record has her listed with Baptiste.We can speculate til hell freezes over, and we'll probably never figure out if she was related to him, and how. |
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