|
|
Post by madrock on Jan 30, 2012 7:05:07 GMT -5
I would not really know. They do have a sound style (or whatever it would be called) to some language other than Dakota. Both Nations lived close by and without doubt had many many more marriages between them that are even recorded. But if Mock-ah-pe-ah-ket-ah-pah translates to "  Cloud" in Dakota and Winona is Dakota for first born daughter, the girl and boy couldn't be Winnebago, I would think. IMHO, of course. I guess that's true. Scroll down here for an opinion that "Witch-e-ain" is Dakota: hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.HillsOfLaCrosse.html#anchor0314096I think the story was probably told in the winter by both Hochunk & Dakota and Dr. Bunnell may have been confused as well. The writer of the article adds to the Witcheain translation "although like some of Dr. Bunnell's other names, it is highly corrupted." This may only be another tale like Winona's leap from the cliff at Maiden Rock, Wisconsin but I think Witcheain or Wicite should be considered as a daughter of Wapasha I. It's the only daughter so far found not to have married a white spouse. |
|
|
|
Post by madrock on Jan 30, 2012 7:12:13 GMT -5
diedrich wrote that Last Man's Indian name was Euhahkaakow. What book? I only have "Famous Dakota Chiefs, Volume One" and "The Chiefs Wapahasha" and I don't see that translation in either of them. If you have the book, did he footnote where the use of that name came from? |
|
|
|
Post by madrock on Jan 30, 2012 7:29:37 GMT -5
There's so much info here on this thread that I'm getting confused as to which child of Wapasha I we are talking about. Need time to read and maybe start a new thread.  Don't know how/when to reply to each of them. Later . . . . |
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Jan 30, 2012 8:21:48 GMT -5
personally ,I believe that the story is nothing more than a legend.
|
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 10:11:40 GMT -5
personally ,I believe that the story is nothing more than a legend. You mean the one about Witch-e-ain? |
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 11:11:58 GMT -5
personally ,I believe that the story is nothing more than a legend. You mean the one about Witch-e-ain? I think there really was a Witch-e-ain because Bunnell kept in touch with her mother. The legend of Witch-e-ain [which may not have been an uncommon name], the one involved with the warrior, Chaska, may have not been about Bunnell's Witch-e-ain. I don't know--but I've gathered some notes that might help to untangle this thread: Let's start with the first three Wapashas and their dates: Wapasha I [1720-1806] Wapasha II [1769-1855] Wapasha III [1812-1876] Etonkasahwee was definitely the daughter of Wapasha I because she married Pierre LaPointe who was born about 1747, came to Prairie du Chien in 1782 and married his native wife in 1784. Winona was supposedly the eldest sister or cousin of a Wapasha . According to Bunnell, who knew her well, she died about Nov. 1, 1882 and was thought to be more than 90 years old. This means Winona would have to have been born around 1790--which would make her a *very* young sister or cousin of Wapasha II but closer in age to Wapasha III. When Bunnell met Winona's daughter, Witch-e-ain, he said she was around 15 years old. Bunnell never said, as far as I can tell, that Wapasha was Witch-e-ain's father, although some sources say he was and other sources make it clear that this band of Dakota were considered rather odd because they married their cousins. Bunnell seems to indicate that another chief named Mock-ah-pe-ah-ket-ah-pah was the father of Witch-e-ain. Witch-e-ain was supposed to marry a trader but didn't like him and wanted to marry Bunnell. He rejected her but makes it clear that she married Thomas Holmes in due course. So this Witch-e-ain existed. I did not see where Bunnell wrote that this Witch-e-ain was ever married to a man named Chaska, son of a chief named Rem-e-che after the mountain near his camp. A part of Rem-e-che's land was supposed to have been separated by an earthquake and washed down river. I hope this helps a little. |
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 11:47:14 GMT -5
I have to correct something. Bunnell DID write that Witch-e-ain pursued and married Chaska:
"Chaska, for the time being, at least, gave up his dream of marital reformation, and took Witcheain as wife, and for some time after, the Wah-pa-sha [Wapaœa] band continued to be known as the Ki-yuk-sah band of Sioux, or those who disregarded relationship, as contrary to all customs of the Dahkotahs, they married their cousins."
So perhaps Witch-e-ain and Chaska were cousins. Since, in narrating her encounter with Chaska, Bunnell describes Witch-e-ain as a very fiery maiden and also described her thus when she wanted to marry Bunnell, himself, and was rejected, I think one can infer that this was the same Witch-e-ain. But, it seems Witch-e-ain married a white man [or metis?] in the end and then died of comsumption.
|
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 13:10:32 GMT -5
It seems my brain-freeze about all these people has not yet unthawed. Re-reading Bunnell's
"Winona (We-no-nah) and its environs on the Mississippi in ancient and modern, etc.", I see that Witch-e-ain and Chaska were, indeed, cousins--because Chaska became the Wapasha!
"...for a murder committed on an English trader, Chaska, or the new Wah-pa-sha, gave himself up in Canada as a sacrifice to atone for the murder..." He was forgiven.
But I don't know how this Witch-e-ain who married Chaska/Wapasha could be the same Witch-e-ain who coveted Bunnell. I was wrong about this Witch-e-ain marrying Thomas A. Holmes, as well. Holmes got another girl from the Wapasha band. The Witch-e-ain who liked Bunnell married at trader at La Crosse. In fact, LaCrosse is where Bunnell met Witch-e-ain and her mother, Winona. Bunnell also says that Witch-e-ain had an elder sister, also called Winona, who married a white man, too, another trader. Witch-e-ain died at La Crosse. I know something about this place and perhaps I can figure out which trader she married. This might help place Witch-e-ain and her mother more securely in the time of a Wapasha.
|
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 13:38:41 GMT -5
The starting point of the traders at LaCrosse has to be in 1841 with Nathan Myrick and his partner, Eben Weld. They were the first. There is no indication of Myrick marrying a native woman and he soon found a wife from the east. Eben Weld is an unknown quantity at this point. He only remained a partner of Myrick until 1842 and then Myrick became associated with a man named Miller.
|
|
|
|
Post by madrock on Jan 30, 2012 13:40:51 GMT -5
diedrich wrote that Last Man's Indian name was Euhahkaakow. What book? I only have "Famous Dakota Chiefs, Volume One" and "The Chiefs Wapahasha" and I don't see that translation in either of them. If you have the book, did he footnote where the use of that name came from? I found it. I started looking for Euhahkaakow and found it translated to "Last Man." But where I found it, was in Diedrich's book on Wapasha II where "a second married, Euhahkaakow (Last Man). So some of the genealogies I have seen have him in the wrong generation. Can't make sense of Diedrich's references yet. |
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 30, 2012 14:39:46 GMT -5
This site: www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mnwabbio/3ch3.htmclaims it was Wabasha I who went to Quebec to square the murder of a trader. I give up trying to get these Wapashas straight. These old authors just give conflicting info. |
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Jan 31, 2012 12:39:47 GMT -5
The old authors probably didn't live long enough. to know the other chiefs Wapasha.mark Diedrich based his book on the contemporary Wapahashas. Log into mackreunion.com/ to see the whole dynasty and their descendents. Doane robinson uses the same numbering of the Wapahashas as the above author did. _________ correction re. to the above author ,I mean the older authors. Oh an added note Sarah Goodthunder,wife of Andrew, was the dau. of Wapahasha I/Lefeuille. she was the widow of Sunkaska/White Dog who died in 1862. ____ Addition; What is ironic is that andrew goodthunder testified at the trials of 1862. |
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Jan 31, 2012 12:49:12 GMT -5
The Indians would weave historical data into their stories and legends.
|
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Jan 31, 2012 15:54:18 GMT -5
say madrock: could this Wicite also be the winona of that book I just mentioned? According to the story, the white man she loved, killed the other suitor , but he was too late to catch her before she jumped off that cliff. but again like I asked is this a legende or is it true?
|
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 31, 2012 17:53:30 GMT -5
The old authors probably didn't live long enough. to know the other chiefs Wapasha.mark Diedrich based his book on the contemporary Wapahashas. Log into mackreunion.com/ to see the whole dynasty and their descendents. doane robinson uses the same numbering of the Wapahashas as the aabove author did. Oh an added note Sarah Goodthunder,wiife of Andrew, was the dau. of Wapahasha I/Lefeuille. she was the widow of Sunkaska/White Dog who died in 1862. I checked the site and found only Wapahasha V. Can you look again and find the page that starts with Wapahasha I? The ancestor of my two older daughters is another Mack--Stephen--and his wife, Hononegah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HononegahTheir father, my former husband, is a genealogist who knows all about this family, so if anyone is connected and need info, I can hook you up with him. Also my son-in-law wants help in finding his native roots--and they are not very far removed. He is descended from the Minks family on the maternal side. His grandfather was Clyde Minks of Missouri, a descendant of the Minks who were involved with the Trail of Tears. I don't know how to start a new thread here or I would about this family. They are presently living around Farmington, MO--but my son-in-law lives in my state now. I checked the Minks Family website, quite extensive, but could find nothing. |
|
|
|
Post by mink on Jan 31, 2012 23:46:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by madrock on Feb 1, 2012 6:03:48 GMT -5
The old authors probably didn't live long enough. to know the other chiefs Wapasha.mark Diedrich based his book on the contemporary Wapahashas. Log into mackreunion.com/ to see the whole dynasty and their descendents. doane robinson uses the same numbering of the Wapahashas as the aabove author did. Oh an added note Sarah Goodthunder,wiife of Andrew, was the dau. of Wapahasha I/Lefeuille. she was the widow of Sunkaska/White Dog who died in 1862. From my understanding, the name Wapasha (& other various spellings) back in the late 18th century when white writers were chronicling the events of the frontier, was more of a title instead of a surname as the Wabasha hereditary chiefs of today are identified. And they were writing about the upper Mississippi River valley and the Minnesota River. Subsequent chiefs to Wapasha (1720-1806) were bestowed the title Wapasha. It's entirely incorrect to suddenly begin referring to supposed ancestors of Wapasha (1720-1806) from the Mille Lacs area by a title they did not earn. IMHO! An additional added note: Sunkaska/White Dog was one of the 38 hanged on December 26, 1862.
|
|
|
|
Post by madrock on Feb 1, 2012 6:32:13 GMT -5
say madrock: could this Wicite also be the winona of that book I just mentioned? According to the story, the white man she loved, killed the other suitor , but he was too late to catch her before she jumped off that cliff. but again like I asked is this a legende or is it true? I think they could well be the same. Winona was the name commonly given to the oldest daughter; she could have had a personal name as well. And Wicite could have been intended to mean Winona, or visa versa. We should accept the "lovers leap" story as legend, lore, or tradition. It could be very true and it could also be an embelished story told over many winters the Elders or story tellers. I don't consider native legend, lore, or tradition as "fiction." There was no written language (talking leaves) in that era. There used to be a parlor game (does that date me or not!) where people would sit in a circle and someone would write on a sheet of paper, a short phrase or sentence, unseen by the others in the circle. That person would then whisper what was written to someone next to them. That person would then whisper it to the next and so on. When the last person in the circle heard the whispered phrase or sentence, they would announce it aloud and then the originator of the story would read the phrase. The lengthier or more complex the phrase, the further it got from the original. Legend, lore, or tradition should be accepted but prefaced as such, i.e., "Tradition has it, that . . . ." |
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Feb 1, 2012 9:39:33 GMT -5
madrock: i remember that parlor game,we used to play it when I was much younger. when I was studying for my Assoc. in Mechanical Drafting, we were told,in our Industrial psychology class to start a rumor where we worked ,and report what we heard when the rumor had circulated back to us. We got a good laugh at how the rumors were embellished by the time it got back to me and my fellow students.
|
|
|
|
Post by hermin1 on Feb 1, 2012 10:12:15 GMT -5
|
|
Cloud" in Dakota and Winona is Dakota for first born daughter, the girl and boy couldn't be Winnebago, I would think. IMHO, of course.
