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Post by tamara on Jul 20, 2006 9:06:49 GMT -5
What are the basics of the results of July 18th and what do we need from there? The way I understand things so far is that we have been granted consideration of the other lists or censuses. Personally, that alone pleases me greatly as I am sure Kaardal would have loved to have been able to proceed on without the Judge ever considering anything other than their perspective of things. I follow the remarks made by Carl Leith as they had referred to their message board as a means of notifying the public of the facts, but certainly take into consideration the source. Judging by the fact that they did not post what was said on the July 18th hearing until the following day, they must have been very stunned. The people there waited for him and word about the results but got nothing substantial for so long it seemed as if they didnt know what to say. I saw a number of them going to "chat" about things and one could and should assume that they were chatting about more than the weather, but very little information for their people. Amazing as I know some of the interveners has information from their attorneys as early as 2:00 PM that afternoon. If they work for them you would think they would inform them promptly. Mr KIA for "Know it all" posted early on that "the interveners MAY have a case", I think that part stunned everyone. There was also remarks about Lettow as having "rolled his eyes" at the other attorneys speaking, which reeks of disrespect for a Supreme Court Judge and the system our courts are based on. There was no breaking out the champagne, ordering US Marshalls to evict the residents of the Communities, or getting the "spending money" they spoke so often about. All of which pleases me as it indicates a strong dose of reality covering the entire issue and finally a sense of fairness. By calling the intervening parties "Ticks" they forget they are possibly referring to their relatives who lacked a "holy grail" of a document or something else that did not give them the blessings of Buttes' certification. They forget to honor the ancestors of others who were there alongside their own ancestors. There are many who watch this lawsuit progress for other reasons than trying to get "their piece of the pie" and They have been telling their people to not lose faith as the US and Kaardal will not allow the interveners to be a party without their okay they cannot join this lawsuit. It would seem to imply that they attorneys have some sort of decision making abilities and this to me is doubtful as it would make better sense that the Judge would have some say in the matter. I understand the need to "show just cause" and would expect that. It doesnt bother me a bit that it would be stated that the attorneys didnt follow procedure in filing a brief to show just cause as many such as Montana have not been allowed time to do so, when they represent people who recieve their denial notice a day before the hearing. It would seem that Montana is speaking directly to the perspective of Judge Lettow on the subject of the section of the December statement where he states that it would appear that there are some who are on the cencuses who should not be and some who are not that should. that is only fact and it is impossible to ignore Lettows words on that. Anyone else care to put their perspective of the results up for us to learn from?
Tamara
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Post by mdenney on Jul 20, 2006 10:32:48 GMT -5
ANY NEWS IS GOOD NEWS! GREAT POST TAMARA!  |
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tonya
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Post by tonya on Jul 20, 2006 19:05:09 GMT -5
Personally speaking and having been at the hearing I could not post until the next day as I did not get home until late Wednesday. I personally was not stunned, however I was amazed at how people seemed to be working together for the best result. So I am unsure as to what you are talking about, maybe asking first rather than assuming might be helpful. Have a great night.
Tonya
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bobdu
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Post by bobdu on Jul 20, 2006 22:00:03 GMT -5
i for one appreciate what you said tamara. i was waiting for someone to come out and address those people who have their nerve to call others "ticks". they should be helpful and not have these hard feelings. it reeks of greed!!!!!!!
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Post by dgberg on Jul 20, 2006 22:15:23 GMT -5
sorry, i wasn't really up to reading all of tamara's post there was a lot there ( no disrespect to tamara i'm just tired) but after gathering info from folks that were actually at the hearing i feel things are looking very positive for folks that are linked up by means other than the '86 & '89 census. how is that negative? i for one appreciate what you said tamara. i was waiting for someone to come out and address those people who have their nerve to call others "ticks". they should be helpful and not have these hard feelings. it reeks of greed!!!!!!! |
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Post by tamara on Jul 21, 2006 1:01:41 GMT -5
I dont mean that everyone was stunned as there certainly are many who remained more level and balanced that those ready to drink champagne and the other foolish junk stated. The ones who make those kind of off center remarks are just the ones who stand out. No disrespect as to your kind sharing of information but I dont think anyone was waiting for you personally as much as they were their other means of communication and the individuals who promised it by saying things like "see ya tuesday night" and that 10:00 would be the aproximate time. In fact it would almost appear that you have done a much better job of relaying information, not to mention in a level and balanced manner, and probably would have cared more about the persons waiting to hear something than those that chose to go "chat" and leave others hanging. I do stress that this is only my opinion and it doesnt have to mean much to anyone, I am only joining the many who voice theirs when I say that it is clear that there is an air of "deflation" for some and I apologize for lacking the ability to remain nonopinionated with some of the things that are said. I cant imagine how one might be able to defend some of it. (I dont mean to imply that you would) My personal expectations of myself are to not remain silent when I see things that are insulting and hurtful, not to mention disrespectful, not necessarily for myself but for the remote possibility that it benefits someone to know that such things dont pass unnoticed or uncared about.
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Post by wazi on Jul 21, 2006 16:56:06 GMT -5
I agree with you Tamara, It was very difficult for me to read many of the remarks made. I have been fortunate enough to have made the plaintiff's list, however I have many relatives waiting and have filed a motion to intervene. I was very sad or worried with the posts being made. I am very happy that my cousin Tonya called me and let me know what she had perceived to have taken place. You see Tonya and I are related in several different lines. And we both are (along with many of our other relatives [Dawn H]) researching and fighting hard for our great great great great grandmother Julia Oldman. The closeness that we share in discovering our past has been a very magical experience. So I take to heart the sincerity of Tonya and believe what she tells me. I also believe that she is the type of person that thinks before she speaks and does her best to mind her manners (she definitely does a better job at that then I do  ). So I completely understand that she would not hurriedly post on the forum her opinions. I believe this to be true of Will also. All I can say is wow, we are finally getting somewhere. And when the judge finally makes his approval of my grandma Julie, I will sit and cry with joy, because she had such a hard and long life. Take care all, Maggie Ross |
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Post by mdenney on Jul 21, 2006 16:59:59 GMT -5
tamara...I don't care how it SOUNDS...but it LOOKS good to me! lol lol  MILLIONS IN WEEKS GUYS!! hahhahahahahhaahhahahhahahah OMG! Some one help my stomach hurts now. tamara you made a good point les be those who lack the ability to grasp the integrity of your observation...merely instinct to rebound their interest in others that may have a grand oppertunity to enhance their own life style...hint! tamara good and to the point. Your speculation was fantastic. |
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Post by tamara on Jul 21, 2006 18:30:47 GMT -5
I agree with you Tamara, It was very difficult for me to read many of the remarks made. I have been fortunate enough to have made the plaintiff's list, however I have many relatives waiting and have filed a motion to intervene. I was very sad or worried with the posts being made. I am very happy that my cousin Tonya called me and let me know what she had perceived to have taken place. You see Tonya and I are related in several different lines. And we both are (along with many of our other relatives [Dawn H]) researching and fighting hard for our great great great great grandmother Julia Oldman. The closeness that we share in discovering our past has been a very magical experience. So I take to heart the sincerity of Tonya and believe what she tells me. I also believe that she is the type of person that thinks before she speaks and does her best to mind her manners (she definitely does a better job at that then I do ). So I completely understand that she would not hurriedly post on the forum her opinions. I believe this to be true of Will also. All I can say is wow, we are finally getting somewhere. And when the judge finally makes his approval of my grandma Julie, I will sit and cry with joy, because she had such a hard and long life. Take care all, Maggie Ross I understand exactly your feelings and appreciate your words. I think, like anyone who reads Tonya's words or Will's for that matter, can see the nature of their intent and that they are amazing to think of all people, both boards, in relaying information and doing so in such a manner that level and balanced. One could only assume they live their lives that way as well. I hope that when I respond to the remarks made by some, it is clear that I didnt perceive either Tonya or Will to be apart of them and didnt think they would defend them. I certainly meant no disrespect for them and can only feel the opposite for their efforts. To be clear, I dont believe that anyone thinks I disrespected them, I just want to be sure that my remarks about the comments and insults has nothing to do with them. I can clearly see that they are not impulsive with either their opinions or insights and take great care in their wording, wanting neither to mislead or downplay anything. They did a good job. Myself, I know a great deal about the history of my g/grandmother Daisy Robertson, her father and grandfather, and how the family came to reside on the Sisseton Reservation. How when oxen and wagons were distributed on this Reservation, his and his brother's were taken from them and given back to the agency as some felt that they were not entitled to have them as it was to benefit the Sissetons and they were known to be Mdewakanton by blood. I know that in reading the appropriation acts, when they speak of the loyal or friendly sioux who lost their lands and homes in return for their actions in suppressing the violence, they are speaking of him. He wasnt a rich man, but a good and intelligent man, and found a way to survive elsewhere after being unable to remain in his homeland, he left in 1866. He wrote to us, his descendants and told how they lived along the river, hunting what they could find to survive, trying to remain in Minnesota. For no one to care about people such as him in the current issues, feels not only insulting but heartbreaking, for his g/granddaughters to be called "ticks", infuriating, as they are amazing women who choose to speak for their greatgrandfather. I am pleased with them and pleased that they have been given the opportunity to simply be considered, and that blessing is because of an unusual chain of events putting them in touch with Mr Montana who took the time to listen. Tamara |
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 22, 2006 4:40:17 GMT -5
Tamara where did you get your information re. what went on at the hearing? I am not doubting you. I checked the Kaardal website and they mentioned that they were working on transcribing the notes from the hearing and would be posting them soon.
My cousin checked out the other web site and they were still waiting to hear from Mr Lieth about what went on at the hearing.
As for Tonya, I would consider the source, and leave it at that.
I was told by an informed source that Mr Kaardal was reprimanded by the judge several times during the hearing.
I hope oneof the other attorneys has the intelligence to submit that memo from the Dept. of the Interior in 1971 which dealt with the means of establishing Lineal descendancy to the Mdewakantons living in Minnesota in May of 1886,for the Shakopee land. it mentioned the 1917 McLaughlin Roll, and something to do with a person having a certificate to allotted land in Minnesota. i am wondering if this memorandum may have been introduced last year in the early court proceedings.
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Post by tamara on Jul 22, 2006 8:14:06 GMT -5
Interesting post, since it has been my focus of late to read more on the history of the issues and following up on the documents that are cited in the complaint and other court documents. It's really interesting what you find when you look closely. Example the part where the state "presence in Mn in May 20, 1886 was determined to be adequet proxy for friendliess"... sounds good until you see that they are siting a letter from Dept of Interior in 1979. Interesting when the letter that Lettow cites in 1889 clearly shows no such sentiment. It would seem to my simple reasoning that it would be more important to consider the intent and perspective at the time of the census and distribution, that what someone sitting in a BIA office in 1979 thought. Just goes to show how one persons perspective is really no more valuable than anothers. The information I heard was taken from what some of the interveners were told by their attorney and from what I read on the website that promised information tuesday night. I wasnt offended by tonya, really and still think she and her family were a good source of information, the best I have seen so far. However, I am not sure what the remark about "ask, before you assume" was about since it seemed worthless to "ask" judging by what was given to those that did by way of information. Maybe later should I be inclined to think more of myself than I am worth, I will reread the remark and be insulted. Also somehow my words seemed to imply to her that t I expected her or her family to share information quickly or on tuesday night when that couldnt be further from my thoughts. I hadnt expected them to share at all but like others was pleasantly surprised. I did think that some clear information would be given to those online and waiting until midnight from their moderator who told them he would do so and even asked some of them to fund some of his minor expenses to respresent them or go on their behalf.
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Post by winona47 on Jul 22, 2006 9:08:36 GMT -5
I was also personally delighted at what occurred DURING the July 18th hearing.
Counsel for various parties of true LD's, wannabees, and a mixture of both got to present their motion to intervene. Judge Lettow will now make a decision (according to the law) whether documentation other than the 1886 census can be used (according to the law) to establish direct lineal decendancy in this particular lawsuit. Most of our family members are "qualified to be accepted as plaintiffs" by MKLaw's stringent standards and are listed on the Second & Third Amended Complaints. However, a few others are placing their hopes with other counsel. I am especially delighted because our entire family will "have their day in court."
Will I be delighted at what occurs AS A RESULT OF the July 18th hearing?
I will not speculate. What will happen, will happen! I feel the judge will include every person he possibly can (according to the law) which also means he will not include people (according to the law) that would leave his decision fragile and indefensible in appeal.
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tonya
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Post by tonya on Jul 22, 2006 9:16:14 GMT -5
Everybody is inclined to their opinion, I wish the two of you the best.
Have a good day!
Tonya
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cds
New Member
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Post by cds on Jul 22, 2006 13:30:32 GMT -5
Do you know that Carl got back late that night and could not post right away? Have you ever not heard of a plane being delayed? Give him a break! I guess I don't remember seeing anything on this board from anyone in particular posting what they knew of 1st hand, this board relied on some information from the other board and then posted it on here. I appreciate Tonya/Will and their comments and everyones comments who were there!
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Post by tamara on Jul 22, 2006 13:43:45 GMT -5
You need to reread the board and check the times he posted that he was there and then told very little but took the time to chat with a few regulars. Personally it doesnt matter to me, I wasnt waiting for his remarks but there was a big long list of persons who were, anyone can see/read that.
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Post by redbrother on Jul 22, 2006 16:32:34 GMT -5
I agree with you Tamara, It was very difficult for me to read many of the remarks made. I have been fortunate enough to have made the plaintiff's list, however I have many relatives waiting and have filed a motion to intervene. I was very sad or worried with the posts being made. I am very happy that my cousin Tonya called me and let me know what she had perceived to have taken place. You see Tonya and I are related in several different lines. And we both are (along with many of our other relatives [Dawn H]) researching and fighting hard for our great great great great grandmother Julia Oldman. The closeness that we share in discovering our past has been a very magical experience. So I take to heart the sincerity of Tonya and believe what she tells me. I also believe that she is the type of person that thinks before she speaks and does her best to mind her manners (she definitely does a better job at that then I do ). So I completely understand that she would not hurriedly post on the forum her opinions. I believe this to be true of Will also. All I can say is wow, we are finally getting somewhere. And when the judge finally makes his approval of my grandma Julie, I will sit and cry with joy, because she had such a hard and long life. Take care all, Maggie Ross I like that. Everything I' was told about the hearing, I was very pleased to hear. I thought it was wonderful that we even had a say in this. If I may suggest to everyone, if in fact you go somewhere that is a negative area on this 'internet', I suggest you leave and not get involved at all, no matter how offensive it may sound to you. I did not go to the other board at all. I was told a little about it and that's all I needed to hear. We should all defend the 'nuetralness' of this board and continue to 'welcome' everyone here and make them 'feel' welcome to speak and encourage them to speak in a relaxed way. The Administration of this board has been very fair in they're judgements of thought processes and I for one really appreciate that. Speak in peace, go in peace. |
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Post by tamara on Jul 22, 2006 18:32:42 GMT -5
I agree with you Tamara, It was very difficult for me to read many of the remarks made. I have been fortunate enough to have made the plaintiff's list, however I have many relatives waiting and have filed a motion to intervene. I was very sad or worried with the posts being made. I am very happy that my cousin Tonya called me and let me know what she had perceived to have taken place. You see Tonya and I are related in several different lines. And we both are (along with many of our other relatives [Dawn H]) researching and fighting hard for our great great great great grandmother Julia Oldman. The closeness that we share in discovering our past has been a very magical experience. So I take to heart the sincerity of Tonya and believe what she tells me. I also believe that she is the type of person that thinks before she speaks and does her best to mind her manners (she definitely does a better job at that then I do ). So I completely understand that she would not hurriedly post on the forum her opinions. I believe this to be true of Will also. All I can say is wow, we are finally getting somewhere. And when the judge finally makes his approval of my grandma Julie, I will sit and cry with joy, because she had such a hard and long life. Take care all, Maggie Ross I like that. Everything I' was told about the hearing, I was very pleased to hear. I thought it was wonderful that we even had a say in this. If I may suggest to everyone, if in fact you go somewhere that is a negative area on this 'internet', I suggest you leave and not get involved at all, no matter how offensive it may sound to you. I did not go to the other board at all. I was told a little about it and that's all I needed to hear. We should all defend the 'nuetralness' of this board and continue to 'welcome' everyone here and make them 'feel' welcome to speak and encourage them to speak in a relaxed way. The Administration of this board has been very fair in they're judgements of thought processes and I for one really appreciate that. Speak in peace, go in peace. Red Brother Thank you for your words. I found them very impacting. Amazing how something balanced and truthful can jump out at you, and this is exactly what your post did for me. I can see now that the hateful words of a few, had taken their toll on me. I will no longer allow such things any influence in my mind or spirit. With that understanding, I can also see that had it not had effect on me, I would not have begun this thread with some of the feeling that seeped through. I realized even before that someone as level headed as Tonya and company, were only responding to the negative attitude that probably showed more than I thought it would. It is a very wise suggestion to defend this board as being neutral and I am sorry to have taken it a bit in the opposite direction. I intend to remain focused on searching and learning, and now that others have been outspoken enough to state that they see the hurtful remarks and other attitudes, I can rest assured that it is not accepted by others. Prior to the recent comments against such remarks, I had wondered why so few responded appropriately. Now I understand, the need to remain neutral here and unable to there, and wont let that trouble me anymore. I do intend to post on the issues at hand, and wont hold anything back, just skip the negative element I fell into. Great guidence RedBrother, and I appreciate it very much!! Have a great weekend! Tamara |
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Post by redbrother on Jul 22, 2006 18:51:08 GMT -5
Don't be sorry. Be human. Have a great weekend and thank you.
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Post by wazi on Jul 23, 2006 20:29:28 GMT -5
It happens to the best of us....Some days I have to pray harder then most to get through all the negative energies circulating....However I know that it is up to be to make a difference in this world, so I must take caution in my words and actions (which can be really really hard at times)...Let's all rejoice in the spirit of our ancestors and know that we are blessed to be here today....
Take care,
wazi
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Post by mdenney on Jul 25, 2006 15:35:44 GMT -5
Yes if our source matches the other board then you can claim that we reposted from that other site...like this:
« Posted on #14 on Jul 22, 2006, 12:43pm » Instead it would be listed as a new thread this way you can check the actual strength in your claims.
Further more intelligence is the key to victory in any case.
NEXT!
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). So I completely understand that she would not hurriedly post on the forum her opinions. I believe this to be true of Will also. All I can say is wow, we are finally getting somewhere. And when the judge finally makes his approval of my grandma Julie, I will sit and cry with joy, because she had such a hard and long life.
MILLIONS IN WEEKS GUYS!! hahhahahahahhaahhahahhahahah OMG! Some one help my stomach hurts now.
