lol. Yeah, that board has about 3 loony tunes over there spewing their mindless propaganda. They are saying "they don't know whats going to hit them" in regards to the SMSC community, but they don't know what's going to hit them. Do you realize this can be appealed many, many, many times. And if they attemped to bring in SMSC and PI, their billiondollar lawyers will fight that to no end. In the LS newsletter from last fall hit it to a T, the most we can expect is compensation. Mystic Lake and enrollment wont happen, imho.
Ceyote (that sonova...) said he would pulls a Wounded Knee 2 at Shakopee. How sick is that? I see he's hardcore, but come on..that's stepping over the line. What's his name? I know he's from San Diego and LD, but If I knew who he was and I saw him at a convention, I would kick the s*** out of him for that comment. Talking about murder is flat out crazy and he should be banned from that board. But you know Carl, Coyote is his whipping boy, so he's not going anywhere
Last Edit: Jun 16, 2006 16:12:51 GMT -5 by cashmoney
Legal speculation is for us non-lawyers. Seems to me that anyone who has passed the bar exam knows better. The case has not formally come to trial yet. Yes, I know, "What the h..l have they been doing all this time?" Hearings, yes; but one key point has been decided: An enforceable trust was found to exist. That was a partial summary judgement of the court. It was an enormous point that the feds didn't think they would lose, and are still in shock today over the Oct. 2004 action of Judge Letow. Yes, that and all the judgements that follow that are hostile to the US Gov. can and will be appealed, but let's give Erick his due: he took a huge victory in moving for summary judgement and winning on that point. It grieves me to see people spending money the haven't seen yet, and making plans for how they're going gloat over Stanley's shock and disappointment. So far, only US Gov has anything to lose, and they're still a long way from having to pay.
"Still in shock", do you have proof, or is this what you came up with?
Bottom line, the Tribes are not involved in this case in any way shape or form. Until they are parties, everything Carl or any of the goons on the other site say, is a moot point. Will they? who knows, could happen. Is there a chance they wont be brought in? yes.
Nothing has been won, nothing has been awarded. I think any other lawyer from a small rez could have gotten us this far as Erick has. He's not god like Carl makes him out to be.
People going around spending money they don't have, planning for stuff they know is asinine is the result of Carl posting on his board "weeks awway, next month, ect"
Victory is not won, that's my point. As of today, SMSC is not in danger of losing their health club, let alone Mystic Lake, as many of the people are led to believe by the other board.
Last Edit: Jun 16, 2006 16:28:24 GMT -5 by cashmoney
The proof I've got is that many of the present and former US Gov atty's that have been following this case are friends of mine and they have told me. Gov's position is that since Congress was acting using its plenary powers granted by the Constitution, they could do just about anything they wanted with the land set aside for the 1886 Loyalists and their LD's. US Gov's position is that that land was not held in trust for the 1886 loyalists, but was federal land merely set aside for their use. Benficial title was never separated from legal title, such as in other reservations that are the result of treaties, executive orders, etc. Judge Letow disagreed. I agree with you on most of your points, but my point is that and enormously important issue has been settled, at least at this level.
The judge ordered the US to submit whatever list of lineal descendants the US has kept. There was no such comprehensive list kept in large part because no one ever believed there was a trust as argued on our behalf (and found by the Judge); plus, if anyone reads the historical documents, it was virtually impossible to keep such a list because the Mdewakanton moved around; many did not want to be part of such a list; many chose to join other tribal groups; many chose not to be Indian at all.
Nothing has been settled, not by a long shot. What I think people are forgetting and what Carl or Barbra failed to tell anyone is that this court has extremely limited juricdiction. They can't divert PC or Casinos to anyone. It would take an act of congrass and the BIA to get involved, and both sides have stated they will not get involved.
Last Edit: Jun 16, 2006 17:06:48 GMT -5 by cashmoney
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Jun 16, 2006 22:32:29 GMT -5
I agree with Tokakte. This case is about a “breach of trust.” This case as I understand it, has little to do with “Indian Law” and lots to do with “Trust” law. There is a difference. “A breach of trust by the US has been determined to have occurred and this Court will have to determine both the nature and extent of the trust duties owed by the US.” Following that decision, the Court will then determine how the Plaintiffs will be made “whole.”
All other questions will have to be fought in due time.
Post by wahachanka on Jun 17, 2006 10:28:13 GMT -5
Curtis is correct. The Wolfchild case is based upon upon ordinary trust law and not "Indian Law", which is what makes it so unique and why so many legal experts are watching it carefully. Previous attempts to litigate the issues at stake were unsuccessful because of the peculiar aspects of "Indian Law".
In contrast to what cashmoney says, the US Court of Federal Claims does have the power, and in fact the duty, to order whatever remedy (-ies) necessary to resolve the claims that are to be litigated, in addition to awarding monetary damages. The rules of the USCFC, as well as the Uniform Trust Code specifically say this. Common sense also dictates that it should be so . . . what good would an award of damages for breach of trust do if the breach were allowed to continue past the awarding of damages? No court would do such a thing, and anyone who has supposedly studied law should know this.
As for the claim that Mr. Kaardal was "schooled" by the Hon. Judge Lettow, it appears nothing more than a baseless attack on Mr. Kaardal's ability as a litigator. While the full text of the April 28th hearing is available at the MKLaw website, I will post the relevant portion of the discussion between the judge and Mr. Kaardal about whether or not the US should have a list of lineal descendants (and this issue only), editing out the non-essential parts of Mr. Kaardal's statements for the sake of brevity, but leaving the judge's words completely intact.
MR. KAARDAL: . . . This is rooted in the trust duty to identify, notify, and inform the beneficiaries and so I think at a first strike at it, you know, this is information the United States should have ready at hand, a list of the lineal descendants
The Court: Well, that point though, Mr. Kaardal, sort of assumes a result in the case. After all, the 1980 statute was enacted 25 1/2 years ago, and the United States has taken a different view of its responsibility since the enactment of that statute. That's really one of the key things that's at issue in the litigation.
MR. KAARDAL: I understand that. Then there's a duty pursuant to your Court order to provide the names and addresses of the lineal descendants they know.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. KAARDAL: That duty exists. . . . . . . I think that we should look at the motive of the United States here to determine how to answer that question whether they know or they don't know.
THE COURT: But, Mr. Kaardal, you're going to the discovery almost and the merits. The Court's order insofar as asking the United States under the Call statute to provide what it knew from its own records really focused almost entirely on the notice question. You're going afield from that and addressing the merits, I believe.
MR. KAARDAL: I don't think so, Your Honor. I'm not going to continue on this line, but the point being my point is whether the United States knows or doesn't know lineal descendants because that's useful for mailing notices. There's a difference between the general notice that we provided and mailing something to specific persons. It's all under the best notice practicable under the circumstances.
THE COURT: The Court certainly agrees with that proposition, Mr, Kaardal.
As anyone can see, no one was "schooled" in the exchange.
While I agree that there is much left to do before the lawsuit is completed, legal analysts will tell you that the inevitable outcome is fairly assured with the landmark ruling that a breach of trust was committed by the United States. As for being dragged out on appeal, there is actually a limited number of ways the issues at stake can be appealed, and enforcement of judgement (other than perhaps distribution of monetary damages) would be unlikely to be held up during such appeal. In addition, less than 20% of all appeals at the federal court level are successful in overturning the original decisions, therefore the United States will have to weigh the pros/cons of even attempting to appeal, or cutting its losses by settling before final judgement is even issued. As for the communities and individuals involved, since the Court's remedy order is likely to be issued to the DOI to "correct" the problem, the communities cannot appeal anything. Their only option will be to sue the DOI, which will not prevent enforcement of remedies so issued.
Also, the claim that people are rushing out to buy expensive cars, etc. is one that has been purported often by the so-called "detractors" of the Wolfchild case ever since its beginning, and has little to no basis in fact. File it under the category of "urban myth", if you will. Each will tell you "I seen (sic) it with my own eyes! It's disgraceful the way these Loyalists treat the elders, too! They're nothing but a bunch of money-hungry white wannabees!"
By the way, I am not a lineal descendant, but an interested bystander. I do not have $$$$ (or the potential loss of it) clouding my vision, nor do I have an axe to grind with any of the involved participants.
Post by peacekeeper on Jun 17, 2006 18:20:14 GMT -5
In answer to both of the last two comments, First No one knows what will happen when this is all said and done. There is much hope, speculation, and often rumors, but NO ONE can give us a difinitive answer until everything is resolved. The one thing I can say is I am proud to be here and be who I am. No court of law will change that fact. Would l like to be considered a descendant? Of course, we all would. I do know that I descend from a terrific family that overcame the worst travesties I have ever heard of, and we still exist. SecondThe spelling of the name has been different throughout history. The Mdewakanton has had it's name spelled wrong more often than right. Fighting among ourselves or making sarcastic comments to each other detract from the purpose of this site so please people lets all work together for the common good of all.
I'm so sick of the other board saying "this month, PC!!" Coyote talking about pulling a Wounded Knee 2 at SMSC, he's one sick person.
Carl is the main guy that I have a problem with. He says "this month" then when it doesn't happen "don't worry folks, it's in about 3-4 weeks" then when that doesn't happen.... You see the pattern here. He and that weirdo, Coyote, act like it's already over and done with. They are planning things already, how can we improve our casino, ect.
They really have no clue. This is a trust case, but when you talk about taking away a tribes casino, that'll bring Tribal Law into effect. The BIA will have to get involved and they already said they wouldn't. Congrass would have to get involved, and that is an extreme long shot. Title of a Casino and PC wont change hands, in my honest opinion backed with knowledge from people who have been in this fight for years.
To this date, the tribes are not parties. So any of this "our Casino" "our money" talk is asinine, and you know it. Don't get your hopes up so high to the point to where it controlls your life. Many have already, thanks to Mr. Carl Leith.
" As we stated in our previous letter, given that your individually stated goal is to disestablish the Prairie Island Indian Communtiy and the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community, we cannot understand how you could possibly expect us to simply "look past these differences". Nevertheless, should you and the other members of the Lower Sioux Indian Community Tribal Council resind Resolution 05-06 and renounce all claims to assert any athority over our Communities, we would reconsider wheter to meet with you to commence inter-tribal discussions about the lands. Unless and until that happns, however, we are not inclined to meet with you and your offer to work together as stated in our lated dated April 27 remains our position. We remain optimistic that our three tribal governments can work together on this important issue."
"we are not aware of provisions of the Lower Sioux Indian Community Constitution and By-Laws that would permet your Tribal Council to asert any athority over two other Tribal Governments. The Lower Sioux Indian Community has no legal right to our Communities gaming revenue, no right to control the collection and disbursement of our Communities' revenue, and no right to revoke, alter, or amend our Communities' Constitutions and By-Laws. Resolution 05-06 and the related but equally irresponsible public pronouncements by you and your attorneys were disprespectful of our communities and an affront to our Tribal Sovereinty"
This will also bring in the Tribal Soverinty defense. This can't be disputed. Some have said on the other board "they aren't soverign"... But you have to be to run a Casino. And this resolution by Sheldon will never happen, IMO. Sheldon is a good man, but a horrible tribal leader in terms of legalities of situations (tribal law for one) and the relationship between the Mdewakanton.
Excuse my language here, but how dumb is Sheldon? "We want to take away everything you own" "but sir, please... lets look past those differences" Not exactly "smooth", he should have had Erick write the letter, at least he wouldn't have sounded so rough around the edges. Also, not exactly how you would to start a tribal relationship, that severed it if anything.
Last Edit: Jun 17, 2006 19:07:05 GMT -5 by cashmoney
Also, Mr. Wahachanka, you seem to forget this court has extremely limited power and they can't assert any takeover, in any way shape or form. I'm suprised that you didn't know that. But I am not suprised Carl or Erick has not told any of us, what a shocker, right? That'll take the BIA/Congrass, and the BIA is clearly not on our side and that will develope into a HUGE roadblock.
I might sound pessimistic, but this is a legal battle and it can't be all fine and dandy like cotton candy like Carl and the other board make it out to be. Because it's not, ...not even by a long shot at this point. Just assumptions and hope driven dreams.
What do you think that SMSC and PI will just sit back and take it if LS tries to take away the gaming rev? please, wake up!!!! This is a huge battle and as of today (trust case or indian law, regardless) they aren't even apart of this lawsuit, and who knows if they ever will. I'm just looking at this whole law suit as a whole w/o sugar coating and leaving out a lot of things (like Carl loves to do). I apologize if I have offended anyone, just stating how it really is, i'm the Anti-Carl Leith if you will, i'm a realist.
Last Edit: Jun 17, 2006 19:16:26 GMT -5 by cashmoney
thank you wahachanka for a very educated post to clear up confusion that has spilled on to this forum. i don't mean any disrespect to cashmoney but erick's win/loss record, as far as this case goes, speaks for itself. he has faced an enormous opposition to overcome and basically has accomplished the impossible. it seems you are very sharp & educated cashmoney but i take wahachanka's posts as gospel. i hope i spelled everything correctly, please let me know if i didn't.
It doesn't matter what his win-loss record is. The fact of the matter is this court can't change title of the Casino's or divert PC. This court has extreme limited juricdiction. It's a trust suit and the most we can get from this court is compensation, at the very most.
The way things are being explained to people who aren't familiar with the in and outs of Law, they expect Mystic Lake Casino from this court process. That can't happen unless the BIA get involved. They (BIA) are against us and already stated they wouldn't get involved one way or another. To get any money that Carl and the other people like him are promising will have to take an act of congress.
The resolution wont pass, imo. This court can't say yes or no, that's not their juricdiciton. This is where tribal law will get involved. And if SMSC gets involved, they have the best Indian-law firm in the country working for them. There is a reason why LS asked Bluedog to step aside because of "conflict of interest". This law firm is dangerous.
It's going to be one big battle after the other. People don't realize that because of the other board. The masses go there and people like me who try to be level headed and nutural (it is a lawsuit afterall) get banned if we try to speak our mind and opinion. Keep your heads up, and take whatever you hear from Carl Leith with a grain of salt.
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2006 0:05:32 GMT -5 by cashmoney
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