Resource for Prairie Island Settlement Records

[peacekeeper]

Greetins sh225. I am probably going to add confusion to the mix with this excerpt. I have taken this off of St. Luke's Episcopal Cemetery online records.


St. Luke’s Cemetery - Hastings, Minnesota
city of Hastings, Dakota County, Minnesota: T115N - R17W, section 34


John Hoffman, Sioux Indian, died 12 April 1899, age 73 years

Jennie, wife of John Hoffmann, Sioux Indian, died 10 August 1912

John, a Sioux indian - A U.S. Scout - A friend of the whites and preserver of their lives in the Sioux Outbreak of 1862, died 20 September 1888, age 72 years. (base of burial monument has ‘Muck A Pea Wak Ken Zah’, could be a name?)


The last one is indeed the mahpiyawakanza (spellings differ) to which you refer. The question is are both Johns the same are different? There deaths are very close. How do you find out if there are 2 separate bodies? Sorry just voicing thoughts out loud.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Jackie

[sh225]

peacekeeper said:

Greetins sh225. I am probably going to add confusion to the mix with this excerpt. I have taken this off of St. Luke's Episcopal Cemetery online records.


St. Luke’s Cemetery - Hastings, Minnesota
city of Hastings, Dakota County, Minnesota: T115N - R17W, section 34


John Hoffman, Sioux Indian, died 12 April 1899, age 73 years

Jennie, wife of John Hoffmann, Sioux Indian, died 10 August 1912

John, a Sioux indian - A U.S. Scout - A friend of the whites and preserver of their lives in the Sioux Outbreak of 1862, died 20 September 1888, age 72 years. (base of burial monument has ‘Muck A Pea Wak Ken Zah’, could be a name?)


The last one is indeed the mahpiyawakanza (spellings differ) to which you refer. The question is are both Johns the same are different? There deaths are very close. How do you find out if there are 2 separate bodies? Sorry just voicing thoughts out loud.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Jackie

Thanks for this... let's see. All the sources do agree that Mahpiyawakanza was definitely one of Sibley's scouts; that is confirmed over and over. Also, several sources agree that he, the scout, was also called Indian John and that he died in September 1888. At least two say that his wife was a daughter of Wabasha; but there is disagreement about whether she was Lucy or Jennie.

Maybe the problem is that there really was a totally different John Hoffman, with a wife named Jennie (perhaps Jennie Wabasha), who died in April 1899, and she died in August 1912. Those dates are also confirmed by two different places.

Maybe the article about Mahpiyawakanze just confused him with the other John Hoffman and gave the wrong name for his wife. It was obviously written quite a while after the events and the writer didn't know him or anything, and could have gotten confused.

If Lucy and Jennie were sisters, it might even help explain how the two men would have known each other and maybe decided to take the same western name when they had to take one--maybe the name of someone who sponsored them, or a godparent when they were baptised.

I was given a different name for the John Hoffman who died in 1899: Mahpiya Icichita. So it is really believable that he was a different person. However, it's hard to be certain just where the mistakes have been made. It is so easy to get names mixed up when trying to piece things together from the records.

Maybe Christy can help us--you said you had a family tree with a Lucy Mahpiyawakanze--can you tell us who this person is?

Thanks everybody!

[sh225]

peacekeeper said:

Greetins sh225. I am probably going to add confusion to the mix with this excerpt. I have taken this off of St. Luke's Episcopal Cemetery online records.


St. Luke’s Cemetery - Hastings, Minnesota
city of Hastings, Dakota County, Minnesota: T115N - R17W, section 34


John Hoffman, Sioux Indian, died 12 April 1899, age 73 years

Jennie, wife of John Hoffmann, Sioux Indian, died 10 August 1912

John, a Sioux indian - A U.S. Scout - A friend of the whites and preserver of their lives in the Sioux Outbreak of 1862, died 20 September 1888, age 72 years. (base of burial monument has ‘Muck A Pea Wak Ken Zah’, could be a name?)


The last one is indeed the mahpiyawakanza (spellings differ) to which you refer. The question is are both Johns the same are different? There deaths are very close. How do you find out if there are 2 separate bodies? Sorry just voicing thoughts out loud.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Jackie

OK, I spent a lot of time studying the Sioux Census rolls. It is so hard to read the handwriting and the spellings are often inaccurate anyway, but I did find a John Hoffman (sometimes called Hopkins) married to a Jenette (Jennie), whose name was something that sort of looked like Mahpya Kichata. And, I also found a John (no sign of 'Hoffman') who is about 10 years younger, married to a Lucy, whose name is something like Mahpyawakasa. This must be 'Indian John' the scout, and the John Hoffman married to Jennie is somebody else. Whoever wrote the newspaper article about Mahpiyawakenze or 'Indian John' may well have had most of the facts right, but he was wrong about the wife's name being Jennie.

No way to tell from the Census rolls who Jennie or Lucy are--that is, if either or both of them are daughters of Wabasha. But that doesn't mean they weren't.

Well, that is a little progress, thanks to everyone's help in posting so much information!

[sh225]

OK, one more addition! I studied the Wabasha genealogies on Dale Ebersol's site. In his Wabasha family tree (from Mark Diedrich's book) he does list an unnamed daughter of Wabasha III who married Marpiyaakicita or Cloud Soldier. SO!! That would be Jennie. And this accounts for the John Hoffman who died in 1899, and was married to Jennie Wabasha. He is NOT Mahpiyawakenze or 'Indian John', who was married to Lucy--whoever SHE was!

Thanks Peacekeeper--your posting did reassure me that most of the dates and other details were real and I just had to sort out the people themselves.

So back to Christy: is this your Lucy Mahpiyawakenze? Is she the daughter of Wabasha and wife of 'Indian John'? Or perhaps she is the daughter of 'Indian John' and Lucy?

[preeves16]

Hi Everyboby! My name is Patty and I am the one who gave sh225 the info she gave all of you guys and gals. Hi coz, long time since we talked last. 1st of all I'm sorry it took me so long to find out about this site, you people are wonderful. I already knew that their were two John Hoffmans married to sisters Jenette (Jenny) Indian name suppose to be Wiyamia and Lucy also called Indian Lucy/ Indian Name Ta-ta-eya-ya-win. I also have pictures of all of them and I went to the cemetery (St. Lukes Cemetery in Hastings, MN.) and took photos of the graves. Jenny and John (Mah-Pi-Ya-A-Ki-Cita) soldier of the clouds/Cloud Soldier Hoffmans Daughter Nancy Hoffman (died 03/May/1899-age 19) is also suppose to be buried there, but I haven't found her grave yet. They are supposedly the daughters of Wapahasha III (Tatepsin/Bounding Wind), although I still have not found documentation on Lucy and I have read every book and article I ran across . That is why I questioned two different versions of which wapahasha was the father of Our 3x's greatgrandmother Anne Monjeau even though I knew (because of the dates) that it had to be Wapahasha II who was her father. In the book The chiefs Wapahasha on Page 30 it says that Wapahasha II had a sister Mrs. Amable Grignon and afterward Mrs. Francois LaBathe, Anne was never married to Amable Grignon, Amable was married to Francois sister Archange LaBathe who later married James Reed. This info I got from a cousin whos Great grandfather was Joseph LaBathe, Francois and Anne LaBathe/Monjeaus son. I also have the newspaper copy of the article on Indian John that states his Wife is Jenny instead of Lucy, we now know his wife was Lucy. Dale is the one who sent me the photo of John and Jenny Hoffman. I met both Dale and Mark at the get-together in June 2006. I plan on going again this year and also the one in Iowa. I hope I get to meet some more relatives, after all by golly we are all related in one way or another. You guys pretty much have what it has taken me two years to research. I'm so sorry I didn't find this message until today, I could have saved yous a lot of time and effort you had to put into the name Monjeau if I would have read this message first, in stead I was off visiting and checking all of the other sites you had posted. And guess what I found? another spelling Mar-piya-wa-kan-za, wife Ta-ta-eya-ya-win and V.P.Mitchell Adopted son, when I thought there was only Joseph McKenzie. Coz I made copies of all the pictures I have including the chruch that Joseph Monjeau helped to build. I have also been learning the lang. so I can better understand what the words and names mean, Mahpiya I believe is cloud. I borrowed my notes to my cousin so I can't check on the meaning for sure. Well here I go off on another subject. well anyway I will have to go through everything I have found out. what I have told you is what I remember off the top of my head. I put everything away so I wouldn't get it mixed in with the McCoy pictures and papers I'm making copies of for a cousin on the McCoy side who is coming from Alaska. Let me know what else you may not have that I might have. I think you guys are the greatest and thank you for this site.

[sh225]

preeves16 said:

Hi Everyboby! My name is Patty and I am the one who gave sh225 the info she gave all of you guys and gals. Hi coz, long time since we talked last. 1st of all I'm sorry it took me so long to find out about this site, you people are wonderful. I already knew that their were two John Hoffmans married to sisters Jenette (Jenny) Indian name suppose to be Wiyamia and Lucy also called Indian Lucy/ Indian Name Ta-ta-eya-ya-win. I also have pictures of all of them and I went to the cemetery (St. Lukes Cemetery in Hastings, MN.) and took photos of the graves. Jenny and John (Mah-Pi-Ya-A-Ki-Cita) soldier of the clouds/Cloud Soldier Hoffmans Daughter Nancy Hoffman (died 03/May/1899-age 19) is also suppose to be buried there, but I haven't found her grave yet. They are supposedly the daughters of Wapahasha III (Tatepsin/Bounding Wind), although I still have not found documentation on Lucy and I have read every book and article I ran across . That is why I questioned two different versions of which wapahasha was the father of Our 3x's greatgrandmother Anne Monjeau even though I knew (because of the dates) that it had to be Wapahasha II who was her father. In the book The chiefs Wapahasha on Page 30 it says that Wapahasha II had a sister Mrs. Amable Grignon and afterward Mrs. Francois LaBathe, Anne was never married to Amable Grignon, Amable was married to Francois sister Archange LaBathe who later married James Reed. This info I got from a cousin whos Great grandfather was Joseph LaBathe, Francois and Anne LaBathe/Monjeaus son. I also have the newspaper copy of the article on Indian John that states his Wife is Jenny instead of Lucy, we now know his wife was Lucy. Dale is the one who sent me the photo of John and Jenny Hoffman. I met both Dale and Mark at the get-together in June 2006. I plan on going again this year and also the one in Iowa. I hope I get to meet some more relatives, after all by golly we are all related in one way or another. You guys pretty much have what it has taken me two years to research. I'm so sorry I didn't find this message until today, I could have saved yous a lot of time and effort you had to put into the name Monjeau if I would have read this message first, in stead I was off visiting and checking all of the other sites you had posted. And guess what I found? another spelling Mar-piya-wa-kan-za, wife Ta-ta-eya-ya-win and V.P.Mitchell Adopted son, when I thought there was only Joseph McKenzie. Coz I made copies of all the pictures I have including the chruch that Joseph Monjeau helped to build. I have also been learning the lang. so I can better understand what the words and names mean, Mahpiya I believe is cloud. I borrowed my notes to my cousin so I can't check on the meaning for sure. Well here I go off on another subject. well anyway I will have to go through everything I have found out. what I have told you is what I remember off the top of my head. I put everything away so I wouldn't get it mixed in with the McCoy pictures and papers I'm making copies of for a cousin on the McCoy side who is coming from Alaska. Let me know what else you may not have that I might have. I think you guys are the greatest and thank you for this site.

Hi cousin, great to 'see' you again!! I am glad you're here and to be back in touch. I lost a lot of your emails and had to start over. I'm emailing you now with some other questions.
sylvia

[hermin1]

dawnday said:

Re: Hasting Settlement B pg.111-17 #4

I'm trying to connect lucy mahpiyawakenze, which I believe is the same person only spelled different but means the same as Lucy Marpiyaidinajitopawin, which means Cloud that stops four times. I believe both Lucy's are one in the same person. My grandmother was Rose Carpenter, her Mother was Lucy Carpenter, and her Mother's Indian name was Cloud that stops four times. If anyone has any info., please help,help,help. Thanks, dawnday

Marpiyawakenza's wife was named Lucy Tateiyayewin.
hermin1

[hermin1]

The John Hoffman that was married to Jennie, daughter of Wabashaw the name in English translates to Cloud soldier.he definitely was not a scout, as he was one of those tried at Mankato, and was imprisoned at Davenport until 1866 when hewent to Santee witht he restof the released men. His name appears ontheSantee Allotments(for 1872. At the time he had a wife and a daughter. the Santee Census for January 1874 listed him as still a menmber ofWakute's band, but his name was crossed out and in the margin it is noted thathe is in Minnesota(NARA-KC,Santee Census 1-1-1874). He is not listed at all in the Santee Census for 1878.The 1880 US Census shows only the Hoffman's three daughters as part of Mahpiyawakonze's household, but the family(of John Hofffman) was no doubt living there then. there may have have been a sibling connection between the two families.

by the timeof the Mdewakanton enrollment of 1885, John Hoffman and his wife had three daughters and a grandson. the Hoffmans, were also related to people who came to Prairie Island, namely the second wife of Jacob Walker(aka Acaksin), Mary nagikaskaskanwin aka Mary Hoffman, a sister or sister-in-law of John Hoffman(cloud soldier).

Mahpiyawakonze, aka Indian John, known to others as John Wakonze,aka John Police,and his wife did not have any children.

As to the staff writer David Welch, he erred in the name of Indian John's wife's name. if Indian John had been given the Christian nmae of John Hoffman,You would think this would have been engraved on his grave monument. Before his death, by the efforts ofsupporters in the community, Indian John was awarded a veteran's pnesion, which was them transferred to his widowLucy(Tteihiyayewin(MHS Bio File: acts dated 8-9-1888 and 3-2-1889).
Indian John ,after his service as a scout, was one of the Faribault group that lived on Alexander Faribault's land(diedrich,1996).

I don't discout what your relative told you sh225, but oral tradition won't hold up as evidence in any court.The key word is documentation.

[Vicky]

Jimmy wrote,

"The only evidence is the Father Dan Madlon tree. On this tree and the Colombe tree which I have also researched, he does seem to be very accurate."

There is also an inaccuracy in Fr. Madlon's LaCroix tree. Robert LaCroix is listed in generation 2 but is actually a son of Fred and Millie, so should be in generation 3. Fr. was no doubt confused, with the siblings (children of Louis and Rosalie) being well over 20 years apart from oldest to youngest. While his trees are beautiful pieces of history, I would not expect them to hold up as evidence in a court of law either. I think you are correct in feeling they wouldn't, Jimmy.

[sh225]

hermin1 said:

The John Hoffman that was married to Jennie, daughter of Wabashaw the name in English translates to Cloud soldier.he definitely was not a scout, as he was one of those tried at Mankato, and was imprisoned at Davenport until 1866 when hewent to Santee witht he restof the released men. His name appears ontheSantee Allotments(for 1872. At the time he had a wife and a daughter. the Santee Census for January 1874 listed him as still a menmber ofWakute's band, but his name was crossed out and in the margin it is noted thathe is in Minnesota(NARA-KC,Santee Census 1-1-1874). He is not listed at all in the Santee Census for 1878.The 1880 US Census shows only the Hoffman's three daughters as part of Mahpiyawakonze's household, but the family(of John Hofffman) was no doubt living there then. there may have have been a sibling connection between the two families.

by the timeof the Mdewakanton enrollment of 1885, John Hoffman and his wife had three daughters and a grandson. the Hoffmans, were also related to people who came to Prairie Island, namely the second wife of Jacob Walker(aka Acaksin), Mary nagikaskaskanwin aka Mary Hoffman, a sister or sister-in-law of John Hoffman(cloud soldier).

Mahpiyawakonze, aka Indian John, known to others as John Wakonze,aka John Police,and his wife did not have any children.

As to the staff writer David Welch, he erred in the name of Indian John's wife's name. if Indian John had been given the Christian nmae of John Hoffman,You would think this would have been engraved on his grave monument. Before his death, by the efforts ofsupporters in the community, Indian John was awarded a veteran's pnesion, which was them transferred to his widowLucy(Tteihiyayewin(MHS Bio File: acts dated 8-9-1888 and 3-2-1889).
Indian John ,after his service as a scout, was one of the Faribault group that lived on Alexander Faribault's land(diedrich,1996).

I don't discout what your relative told you sh225, but oral tradition won't hold up as evidence in any court.The key word is documentation.

Thanks so much Hermin1. I've learned more on this site than anywhere else! All you people out there are just the greatest. I know you need documentation, but it's hard to find it when you don't even know people's real names! But you're a huge help. I'm not surprised the staff writer made some mistakes. He obviously didn't really know anything about the people themselves. After all he also said that Mahpiyawakenze is 'Indian' for Soldier of the Clouds and we all know there's no such thing as the 'Indian' language, there are many many languages spoken by all the different tribes. Still, I imagine most of the story probably is right, but he confused Mahpiyawakenze the scout with John Hoffman. Thanks again!

[hermin1]

you are most welcome. Mahpiyawakonze and his wife did attend the Episcopal churchat hastings. Iwonder if theyhave a baptismal/confirmation record for him that would conifrmthat he dook the name John Hoffman. ot did that staff writewr getconfused again, and mistake hiim for John Hoffman.aka cloud soldier.

[sh225]

hermin1 said:

The John Hoffman that was married to Jennie, daughter of Wabashaw the name in English translates to Cloud soldier.he definitely was not a scout, as he was one of those tried at Mankato, and was imprisoned at Davenport until 1866 when hewent to Santee witht he restof the released men. His name appears ontheSantee Allotments(for 1872. At the time he had a wife and a daughter. the Santee Census for January 1874 listed him as still a menmber ofWakute's band, but his name was crossed out and in the margin it is noted thathe is in Minnesota(NARA-KC,Santee Census 1-1-1874). He is not listed at all in the Santee Census for 1878.The 1880 US Census shows only the Hoffman's three daughters as part of Mahpiyawakonze's household, but the family(of John Hofffman) was no doubt living there then. there may have have been a sibling connection between the two families.

by the timeof the Mdewakanton enrollment of 1885, John Hoffman and his wife had three daughters and a grandson. the Hoffmans, were also related to people who came to Prairie Island, namely the second wife of Jacob Walker(aka Acaksin), Mary nagikaskaskanwin aka Mary Hoffman, a sister or sister-in-law of John Hoffman(cloud soldier).

Mahpiyawakonze, aka Indian John, known to others as John Wakonze,aka John Police,and his wife did not have any children.

As to the staff writer David Welch, he erred in the name of Indian John's wife's name. if Indian John had been given the Christian nmae of John Hoffman,You would think this would have been engraved on his grave monument. Before his death, by the efforts ofsupporters in the community, Indian John was awarded a veteran's pnesion, which was them transferred to his widowLucy(Tteihiyayewin(MHS Bio File: acts dated 8-9-1888 and 3-2-1889).
Indian John ,after his service as a scout, was one of the Faribault group that lived on Alexander Faribault's land(diedrich,1996).

I don't discout what your relative told you sh225, but oral tradition won't hold up as evidence in any court.The key word is documentation.

Hi, Just one thing, I looked at the 1880 Census and it seems to me this is simply the Hoffman family, not the Mahpiyawakenze household. Father/husband is John, wife Jenny, oldest daughter Winona that would be their daughter Emma the mother of the two grandchildren, then the two younger daughters Julia and Nancy. So I think this John Police is not Mahpiyawakenze but rather Mahpiyaichita or John Hoffman. I suppose they called him 'Police' as a translation of the 'Soldier' or 'Warrior' in his name. Thanks for telling me about this, they've spelled the names so oddly in the transcriptions that I would never have found it by normal search methods!

[gracehopkins]

Jimmy,
You said NOT hold up in a court of Law?
Well aslong as it is a certified copy of what he wrote and it was certifed it will hold up in the court of law.
I hope you can find somewhere in your family bible that names too as that will stand in a court of law.
I have a cosuin that has the family bible of his mother's and it says that Joe Jesse Chase's dad was none other that Jesse W James the outlaw.
I could go and make the so called James say we are who we say we are.
But I want them to have to do DNA to prove to me that is Jesse in that Grave there in Kearney Mo. I know it is NOT him there.

Wait until you see them records I gave Sherwyn. Has alot of very information in there right down to the Name of Dalton, Stay, Campbells, Wabasha, and others names .
Grace

vicky said:

Jimmy wrote,

"The only evidence is the Father Dan Madlon tree. On this tree and the Colombe tree which I have also researched, he does seem to be very accurate."

There is also an inaccuracy in Fr. Madlon's LaCroix tree. Robert LaCroix is listed in generation 2 but is actually a son of Fred and Millie, so should be in generation 3. Fr. was no doubt confused, with the siblings (children of Louis and Rosalie) being well over 20 years apart from oldest to youngest. While his trees are beautiful pieces of history, I would not expect them to hold up as evidence in a court of law either. I think you are correct in feeling they wouldn't, Jimmy.

[wazi]

There are two John Hoffman's one was the son of Lucy Tiyopa and Nomahdi and his dakota name was Cetanna. He married Ellen? and they had a daughter by the name of Lucy and they lived in Santee. but they did travel back and forth from Santee to Prairie Island. The other John discussed here married a Janette and in 1885 he was 62 years old. He had three daughters Emma, Nancy and Julia. Julia is also known as Julia Hoffman-Judson-Laframboise, she had a son by the name of Peter.

Hope this helps.

sh225 said:

tamara said:

Mahpiya Wakenze would be the name of a Dakota Scout, right? So Lucy must be a wife or daughter. John Mahpiyawakanzi, if memory serves (lol) his is the name listed on the Memorial / Monument that Jimmy posted pictures of -the Loyalist Monument. He is also the same man who signs on the letter to Sibley asking for scout service. I transcribed it and posted it on another thread. Also Peacekeer (as usual lol) would know some more interesting things on him.

Tamara

This is what I was told by a cousin who is also descended from the mysterious Nana Coussi / Nana Kunsi, also called Anne Monjeau, who according to some was the daughter of Wabasha II:

Nana Coussi had a niece, Lucy--I think that may mean that Lucy was the daughter of Chief Wabasha III. Lucy was married to Mah-pe-yah-wahkoon-zay (Spirit Warrior) (that's how my cousin spelled it), who was also called John Hoffman or Indian John. He died 20 Sept 1888 at age 72. Lucy died June 5, 1905 and was survived by a sister, Mrs. Jennie Hoffman and a step-son Joseph McKenzie and a niece, Mrs. Joseph McCoy. I'm told that a newspaper article dated Oct. 1891 (not sure what newspaper, somewhere around Hasting MN) says two brothers of Lucy visited from Redwood Falls. John Westman was named as one. An article dated Jan 1896 says Lucy's brother In-kon-we-chaska visited. He was a scout of Sibley's during the outbreak.

Mahpiya Wakenze or John Hoffman's photo was posted on the Oyate a little while back, sorry I don't remember where exactly. I think that's the same person.

Concerning Lucy's sister Jennie mentioned above, this is what I was told about her:

Jennie was married to Mach-pia-icich-a-ta (Soldier of the Clouds) who also chose the name John Hoffman. He died April 13, 1899. Jennie died August 15, 1912. Her obit says she was 88, born in Winona County and was the daughter of Chief Wabasha III. She was survived by two daughters. Mrs.(Julia) David W. LaFramboise and Mrs. Emma Bouier and a granddaughter, Mrs. James Jones. A newspaper dated Nov 1893 mentions a daughter, Mrs. William Whipple visiting her father John Hoffman.

The above is all that I know and I don't even have any way of verifying any of that since I don't know what newspapers this information came from. If anyone can tell me anything about these people, I'd be delighted to hear about it!

[preeves6]

Hi, Wow, when I thought there was only two John Hoffmans, I found another one yesterday on the 1878 Indian Homesteaders Hoffman, John (Maarpiyaowanca). Today I find there is another John Hoffman (Cetanna). I do have articles and documents and photos of the two I have been researching, at least I think they are as they have been dated and signed. Hermin1 you are right about John (Soldier of the clouds) not being a scout, but he and Jenny also had a son according to the Baptism during the Dakota Internment At Fort Snelling 1862-1864. Registry page 98, # 44 1/18/1863 John Buptsta Marpiyaakichita, age 6 yrs. and page 111, #795, 4/29/1863, Julia Marpiyaakichita age 3 yrs. parents Marpiyaakichita and Wiyamia.
Both Johns are mention with their wifes Lucy and Jeanette on page 109 in the book Old Betsy.Indian John was confirmed, Episcopal records collection three # 31 Maypin za wa kunzi (another version of spelling) John and Lucy never had any children but they did adopt a son Joseph McKenzie. Then I find in the Minnesota in the civil and Indian Wars # 28 John Marpiya-wa=kan-za, a. Ta-ta-eya-ya-win, Widow, b. V. P. Mitchell, adopted son. this is the first I ever saw or heard of this adopted son. Now Joseph is mentioned on a lot of census and other articles.
I didn't know Julia, John and Jennies daughter was married before and had a son, according to her orbit. she only had a daughter born three yrs after she married David LaFrmboise in 1893 (I have a copy of their wedding picture) in 1896 and died in 1902. The 1889 Hastings Settlement says Emma Judson daughter of john Hoffman age 38, Peter age 10 son.also the 1895 hastings settlement says Winona Emma Judson, also on the Annuity Pay Roll. Now I hear there are two more John Hoffmans, Say I wonder if one of these Johns is the one Connie Big Eagle was asking me about, I'll have to let her know about them. Anyway I am so glad I found this site, I check every site you mention just hoping today is the day I just might find a lead on where Nanna is buried, that is why I started checking on her extended family and so far everyone knows about her but no one knows where she is buried or has any photos.
Anyway on behalf of my family and Nannas extended family I thank you and if you find out anything new, please post it here as I try to check this site everyday. And I will let you know what I find out also. You are all great!

[hermin1]

Preeves and fellow researchers: thanks so much for the dded information about these Hoffmans. the information I posted was from the referenceI cited at thebottom. Dr. anderson didn't do a thorough search of the records in re. to the Hoffmans son and daughters baptized at Fort snelling. but then neither did I, and I do have Mnojeau's book about fort snelling. i guess I better go stand in the corner again.
One thing though that I am wondering about Indian John, is that he and his wife wouldmake annual trips to Pipestone to pick up materials for thier crft work, and I am guessing that they may have not been in Hastings when the Census taker did his survey in 1880. does that make sense?

[hermin1]

dear grce: the trees that Jimmy posted, were specifically forbidden to be published by Father Madlon. In other words, you can not use them as evidence in a court of law without the permission of whomever he entrusted the trees to. but I believe if you find the same information in that Issue of the south Dakota Historical Collectins(CVol. 23, 1945 or 1949) as long as you cite the reference,you can use themas evidence.
Father Madlon did make some errors in his trees, but that is understandable.

[BIG JON]

hermin1 said:

dear grce: the trees that Jimmy posted, were specifically forbidden to be published by Father Madlon. In other words, you can not use them as evidence in a court of law without the permission of whomever he entrusted the trees to. but I believe if you find the same information in that Issue of the south Dakota Historical Collectins(CVol. 23, 1945 or 1949) as long as you cite the reference,you can use themas evidence.
Father Madlon did make some errors in his trees, but that is understandable.

I DISAGREE!...I WOULD TRY TO USE IT IF IT APPLIES TO YOU...WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?...THE INTERNET POLICE WON'T COME KNOCKING...I THINK THE MADLON TREES ARE FAIR GAME(ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE OF YOUR FAMILY---

AS TO THE STANDARD-PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE--THE CRITERIA HAS NOT EVEN BEEN SET YET...IN OTHER CASES IT HAS BEEN SET AS THIS, THIS, AND THIS BY THE JUDGE...THIS IS A DIFFERENT AND SEPARATE CASE!...THE JUDGE HAS NOT MADE ANY RULING AS TO WHAT THE CRITERIA IS YET!...IT COULD BE THAT THE JUDGE WILL ACCEPT ANYTHING...OR HE COULD ISSUE AN ORDER THAT ONLY BIRTH CERTIFICATES ARE TO BE USED...BUT HE HAS NOT SET IT YET...LETS HEAR FROM THE JUDGE BEFORE WE MAKE DECISIONS AS TO WHAT CAN AND CANNOT BE USED

ON FATHER DANS-MCBRIDE FAMILY TREE(MY FAMILY)---IT SAYS:

FOR THE SACRED USE OF THE IMMEDIATE FAMILY ONLY-PLEASE REMEMBER ZICHA-TAMAHECA

GIVEN BY F. DANIEL LEAN SQUIRREL TO BE KEPT AND SACREDLY CHERISHED BY...

TO ME THIS MEANS THAT IF YOU DESCEND FROM THESE PEOPLE YOU CAN USE IT HOWEVER YOU LIKE...I WOULD SAY THAT IMMEDIATE FAMILY INCLUDES DESCENDANTS

BIG JON


P.S. COPYRIGHT APPLIED FOR DOESN'T MEAN ONE WAS GRANTED...EVEN SO, IF ITS YOUR FAMILY...

[hermin1]

Grace: you didn't tell us that he had made it especially for your family. this puts adifferent light on the subject. Heck yes you can use it in court. Iwould though advise that you get supporting documentation for the names on the treee. As I said before Father Dandid make some errors in tsomeof his trees, and hedid say in the article that this was possible.

[Jimmy]

I didn't mean to say don't use the trees. If you have it, use it, every little bit helps. However, if this is the only documentation you have, I wouldn't hold out any hopes of it holding any water in court. As far as I know, Father Dan never mentioned his sources for his information, and without sources, that makes the trees much less valuable, genealogically speaking. I may be wrong about this, but I just don't want people to get their hopes up. The best bet is keep trying to find primary source documents like birth/death records, probates, wills, military records, etc. These types of documents will almost always stand up in court, whereas secondary documents, like Father Dan's trees, are less likely to hold up.