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Post by hermin1 on Feb 16, 2012 8:07:23 GMT -5
i agree the white hair girl had to be madeline, sister of Thomas A. Robinson.
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Post by madrock on Feb 16, 2012 10:35:10 GMT -5
i agree the white hair girl had to be madeline, sister of Thomas A. Robinson. I disagree - but that is based soley on her obituary I quoted in the Rocque family thread: "Deceased's maiden name was Robinson. She was born in what is now St. Paul, Minn., in 1810, her father being a Frenchman and her mother a Sioux of Little Crow's band of Indians. She came to Wabasha previous to 1838 and lived here, up to the death of her husband a few years ago." The obit doesn't say she "came to Wabasha" with her family, let alone father. But to believe she was Featherstonhaugh's "flaxen-haired beauty" is still a "stretch" for me. His guide Milor kiddingly said he should take her as a wife (if he stayed in Indian Country). I've learned from the Wolfchild lawsuit experience why a death certificate and obituary are not solid proof of lineal decendency. The information is usually taken from the grieved relatives or a non-family member like a doctor or hospital and is not considered as good of information as good news of a birth. More later . . . . |
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Post by mink on Feb 16, 2012 12:11:41 GMT -5
I think we already established that Madeleine couldn't have been born as early as 1910 if her father was Dennis Robinson, who wasn't sent to Minnesota until 1819 by the fur company. Also, the censuses do indicate she was born in more like 1820. Anyway, in 1835 Featherstonhaugh saw a beautiful blonde he thought was 17. She didn't seem to be married to anyone--because as you say the people teased the Englishman about her, indicating she was available if he had a mind to stick around. Madeleine didn't marry Rocque until 1837--so I'm not sure why you object to her being the flaxen-haired beauty. Dennis Robinson, fur trader, is so sparsely attested that I wonder when these part-native children of his were born--and exactly where. From the information we have, it doesn't appear too much in that obit is correct. Does Tom Robinson say where and when he was born in his affidavit?
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Post by madrock on Feb 16, 2012 16:34:40 GMT -5
I think we already established that Madeleine couldn't have been born as early as 1910 if her father was Dennis Robinson, who wasn't sent to Minnesota until 1819 by the fur company. Also, the censuses do indicate she was born in more like 1820. Anyway, in 1835 Featherstonhaugh saw a beautiful blonde he thought was 17. She didn't seem to be married to anyone--because as you say the people teased the Englishman about her, indicating she was available if he had a mind to stick around. Madeleine didn't marry Rocque until 1837--so I'm not sure why you object to her being the flaxen-haired beauty. Dennis Robinson, fur trader, is so sparsely attested that I wonder when these part-native children of his were born--and exactly where. From the information we have, it doesn't appear too much in that obit is correct. Does Tom Robinson say where and when he was born in his affidavit? Madaline's birthdate could be 1804, 1810, 1818, 1819, 1820, 1822. I had alway used 1810 based on her obituary but the 1850-60-70 censuses would average out to 1820. 1850: Madelene Rocque, age 28 (est. 1822) 1860: Madeline Roque, age 42 (est. 1818) 1870: Rock, Magdalena, age 50 (est. 1820) 1880: [not found] 1886: Loyal Mdewakanton census - Indian settlement at Wabasha - age 82 (1804) 1890: [no census] 1900: Roque, Madeline, dob: May 1819, age 81, living with grandddaugher in Wabasha, she has 7 children, only 1 still living. 1904: [obituary] Mrs. Joseph (Madaline) Rocque dies April 13th in the home of her daughter, Josephine at age 94. |
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 17, 2012 12:11:09 GMT -5
madrock: I agree with you, on the latter date, because her brother Thomas was born @1823.In his affaidavit Thomas said he was @32 yrs old.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 23, 2012 4:31:57 GMT -5
i got an answer from the descendent of thomas Robinson. The descendent said that their information re. Thomas and madeline's father came from woolworth and Anderson's book,through Dakota Eyes. As I and others found, some of the authors's information re. some of the peole whose 'biographies they had included in this book, were examples of excessive Literary License. I and others found serious discrepancies in the actual documentations versus what the authors wrote, for ex. Good Star woman, never died in Minnesota. We found her living and dying in NE.
I and others don't consider the book by Woolworth and Anderson as a good biographical reference,to say the least.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 23, 2012 4:43:17 GMT -5
AS I mentioned in the thread re. the rocque family ,by madrock, there was indeed an employee of the Am. Fur company who, according to mink's reference, and my reference, was in the Minnesota area between 1818 and the latter part of 1823.
the puzzle remains, however as to whether or not he was the brother of Rix Robinson, the fur trader in the Michigan area around that time.Rix did have a brother, Dennis Robinson,but as the reference information about this letter says, Dennis never did leave New York to come to the Midwest.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 23, 2012 4:50:18 GMT -5
there is a biographical file on thomas robinson, in the Alan woolworth collection at the Minn. Hist. soc. Archives, in St. Paul. Now if the contnets of the file have not been pilfered as I found had happened to another of woolowrth's files,their may be something about Dennis Robinson, his father in there.
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Post by mink on Feb 23, 2012 12:26:40 GMT -5
AS I mentioned in the thread re. the rocque family ,by madrock, there was indeed an employee of the Am. Fur company who, according to mink's reference, and my reference, was in the Minnesota area between 1818 and the latter part of 1823. the puzzle remains, however as to whether or not he was the brother of Rix Robinson, the fur trader in the Michigan area around that time.Rix did have a brother, Dennis Robinson,but as the reference information about this letter says, Dennis never did leave New York to come to the Midwest. Where does it say Dennis never did leave New York to come to the Midwest? I saw a copy of the letter but never saw that. Can you cite the webpage? |
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Post by mink on Feb 23, 2012 14:12:54 GMT -5
Never mind, Hermin--I see what you mean. Rix couldn't persuade Dennis to come to Michigan at the time of the writing of the letter. By the time it was written, even Rix's fur trading days were over and he was a farmer. So was his brother, Dennis. The unknown quantity is what Dennis had done in his youth.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 23, 2012 20:49:03 GMT -5
I took 2 snapshots of the letter Rix wrotwe to Dennis robinson in 1841 and posted them on page 6 of madrock's main thread re. the Rocques of prairie du chien and Wabasha,MN.
Look at the very top of the letter, and you'll see what I am talking about.
Why would Dennis Robinson have to stay in Minnesota after his emloy with the Am. Fur Company ended? this doesn't make sense.
I am still not convinced that he was Rix Robinson's brother.
what we have is a fur trader who was employed by the am. fur company,as a fur trader on the St. Peters River and the Upper Mississippi.and also built two trading posts with Hazen Moores, during a time span of 1818-late 1823, which would have him around when Madeline and Thomas Robinson were conceived.We also have a letter written by Rix to his brother Dennis Robinson urging him to sell his home and come west, in 1841,and apparently Dennis declided to stay in New York. what you are suggesting re. Dennis Robinson the fur trader being the brother of Rix robinson is just a theory.
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Post by mink on Feb 23, 2012 23:42:50 GMT -5
I would be the last to suggest that Dennis Robinson stayed in Minnesota. I don't believe he did. Of course Madeleine's father being the brother of Rix Robinson is just a theory! However, it's a possibility that so far is not contradicted by any evidence and the problem is that too little is known about anybody named Dennis Robinson. I would never even have suggested a possible connection except for the fact that Rix Robinson worked for the American fur company and so did Madeleine Rocque's father. Also, Rix Robinson's brother, Dennis, was born around the time when Madeleine father should have been. I'm not sure why you find the letter significant as it helps not at all when it comes to knowing what Rix Robinson's brother, Dennis had been doing during 1819-1823.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 24, 2012 11:06:50 GMT -5
That is true, mink. Plus we don't know for certain when Madeline and Thomas were born for certain. then too, i found in my index- I have to recheck my records- a mention that augustin rocquew's mother mother was part Fox,part Dakota, but it was only mentioned once, I believe by mad rock.Dennis Robinson the fur trader, doesn't appear to have been of any significance historically in the fur trade business, as there is no mention of him at all the Telus Planet website which gives a great historical time line of the Metis in the US.
I did recheck my copy of "Through Dakota Eyes" by Woolworth and Anderson, and on p.216, is a brief bio of Thomas Robinson,
and mentions only that his father was Dennis Robinson, and mother was a Mdewakanton woman.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 24, 2012 17:36:18 GMT -5
i found where dennis's wife Lucinda or Lucy died in Cayuga county NY, in 1850 at the age of 52 yrs . Cause of death ,was consumption. her hubby Dennis was not on the list,so he may have died somewhere else in New York.
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Post by mink on Feb 24, 2012 19:20:17 GMT -5
Here he is at Find A Grave, complete with grave marker and last will and testament! www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=65441214As I have found before, these wills can tell a lot about a person and this was the first look I've had at the one of Dennis. today. He had children but again, if he was the father of Madeleine and Thomas, whom he had deserted 25 years previously, would he have mentioned them in the will? Impossible to know the answer. |
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Post by mink on Feb 25, 2012 0:54:18 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 25, 2012 7:59:18 GMT -5
that is a neat website(re. the second one).
re Dennis robinson, so, he must have divorced his first wife Lucy and remarried.
The only white fur trader, that I know of, that included his half breed children in his will was Archibald John Campbell, the fur trader. what is odd,re. that will is he referred to these children as his friends.
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Post by mink on Mar 1, 2012 12:20:47 GMT -5
I have been searching for Solomon Dill Robinson who is mentioned first in the will in an attempt to ascertain just when he might have been born--in case he was really the eldest child. I could not find anything about him. Maybe the 1840 census? One thing I did determine, though--Dennis's wife and heir, Maria, was young enough to be his daughter, having been born in 1817. At the time of the writing of his will, Rix Robinson's brother, a man considered a "pensioner" in Cayuga County [according to the list of pensioners] still had children who had not yet reach their majority. Why he left them all only 2 dollars is odd but perhaps there really was no money. Anyway, with all those kids Dennis might still have descendants even if he is not Madeleine Rocque's father. Rix Robinson's branch of the family died out. That is all I have to say about this particular Dennis Robinson as there seems to me no point in investigating him further. He was busy in his last years but no one seems to know what he'd been up to in his youth. Just one final thing, though--Hermin, you mentioned some descendants of Thomas Robinson you were assisting felt sure his father's ancestry was Scots-Irish but I have to object there is no way they could know. They have no better information than we do. Even Thomas and his sister knew nothing about their father, evidently, and never really knew him personally. In fact, Madeleine evidently thought he had been French. Someone who would have known something about Dennis Robinson was Hazen Mooers, who was acquainted with him, but apparently he was not consulted because surely he would not have given the information that Robinson was French!
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Post by hermin1 on Mar 1, 2012 13:01:40 GMT -5
I doubt you'll find him in Minnesota, in an1840 Census,but you might try the 1849 and 1850 Minnesota Territorial Censuses.I checked the info on dennis Robinson mentioned in the brief Bio of thomas A. robinson The scout and Interpreter, in through Dakota Eyes. No mention of Dennis Robinson's nationality, also I question where Anderson and Woolworth got this information.
but anyhoo. I let the descendet of thomas know about this inconsistency between where they say they got the info, and what was actually written in the source they quoted.
I agree re. Hazen Mooers knowing about Dennis Robinson.
You don't know what Hazen Mooers would have said about Dennis Robinson.
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Post by mink on Mar 1, 2012 13:13:03 GMT -5
I meant the 1840 census at Cayuga County in New York state. That's how one might be able to find out the ages of whatever children Dennis Robinson may have had in that year if they were living with him.
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