SUPREME COURT

[hermin1]

Have you ever tried to catchan eel? Well that is how some lawyers are about setting things down in writing, other than the contracts they have you sign for their services. and believe me they are geniuses at the art of "itemizing" their lawyers fees.

[redbrother]

Well' we are afterall 'fighting the Goverment' and you know how that could go down. If we are to get anythihng out of this, it won't be without a lot of hurdles to climb over and oppositions. We need friends to help us through this, and what I mean by that is good, hardworking, honest people who know how to do it. That's why I think it is best if we get as many people on the plaintiff list as possible. Do you guys have any idea what things like this could mean for the Goverment, if we were to succeed into whatever it is that we might succeed in? I picture a huge army and a huge wall behind that army that we must get through. It's just that I'm not sure what's over that wall. I am speaking in terms of major changes for a lot of people involved with this. This is a different kind of war and we are all (have always been) fighting it.

With that said, I think it would be advisable 'not' to jump the gun on this whole thing. It could go to the Supreme's and it could actually take a few years. I am going to just keep in contact, however with the information that our legal councils can provide for us and hope for the best. I won't pray for this, but I will 'hope' for some kind of retribution for all of this that has caused the pains and sufferings of the past, in which some of us still carry with us today. I am trying not to be hateful about all that has happened, and is happening now. i think we should all try and keep a focused mind and be patient through this.

But more importantly, for me, I'm glad I found you guys.

[denney]

As you put this it isn`t that easy (however with the information that our legal councils can provide for us and hope for the best)

You need to do your research on your family , The lawyers you have if you have one is limited and they need your help to connect you to the list. And if you need help ask someone here to help you .. The staff will try there Best To Help You .

redbrother said:

Well' we are afterall 'fighting the Goverment' and you know how that could go down. If we are to get anythihng out of this, it won't be without a lot of hurdles to climb over and oppositions. We need friends to help us through this, and what I mean by that is good, hardworking, honest people who know how to do it. That's why I think it is best if we get as many people on the plaintiff list as possible. Do you guys have any idea what things like this could mean for the Goverment, if we were to succeed into whatever it is that we might succeed in? I picture a huge army and a huge wall behind that army that we must get through. It's just that I'm not sure what's over that wall. I am speaking in terms of major changes for a lot of people involved with this. This is a different kind of war and we are all (have always been) fighting it.

With that said, I think it would be advisable 'not' to jump the gun on this whole thing. It could go to the Supreme's and it could actually take a few years. I am going to just keep in contact, however with the information that our legal councils can provide for us and hope for the best. I won't pray for this, but I will 'hope' for some kind of retribution for all of this that has caused the pains and sufferings of the past, in which some of us still carry with us today. I am trying not to be hateful about all that has happened, and is happening now. i think we should all try and keep a focused mind and be patient through this.

But more importantly, for me, I'm glad I found you guys.

[redbrother]

My information has already been submitted. One of my family members is still doing follow up work (and she's found quite a bit) and I'm still educationg myself on the subjects. All I can do at this point is offer some words, hopefully some laughs and soon, some questions. I know time is 'a running'. And thank you.

[mdenney]

Yeah Hi berta!

the case to me is like foot prints with out the people in them...hahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

[santee1961]

There are many watching what happens in this case as well as the Cobell case. I just received a notice from the Gov't. for the Cobell case and I MAY be eligible to be a part of that litagation. The outcome of these cases will set a precedent and may set the tone for future cases. I was told that as this was not the only case of "trust abuse" by the Gov't. and with all the information coming to light that there will indeed be other cases. If so, I will not be suprised as mismanagment of the trusts were among some of the lesser misdeeds done to the Indian people. There are also other Dakota people who were not eligible for this litigation but they may file other suits that will include them. As one attorney I talked to put it, "We all (meaning the atty's) need to gain expert status in Indian Law as that will be where many of us will get our future paychecks". I was a little suprised at his frankness but I was glad he said it so I knew where he stood.

[ironday]

I think this case primed for dragging out for years; i.e., true Mdewakantons who are "not allowed" to become plaintiffs because their whole family happend to be removed from Minnesota and it was, therefore, impossible for them to be on the 1866-1869 census. That they can trace their ancestry back to Minnesota, and that the government has already paid many of these members, calling them Mdewakanton, for land taken in Minnesota could be the next case, should the Uncertified Mdewakantons make a challenge with some enterprising lawyer.

[santee1961]

Some families were paid and some were not. There was not an accurate accounting to ensure that all Santee people were found. An imbalance occurred and therefore a case could result from these inaccuracies. My aunt worked for the BIA for many years and she predicted that if the BIA was ever held accoutable for all their mistakes that it could keep the courts busy for years. She negotiated her own leases because the BIA only got pennies on the dollar for her allotment. She was able to get more of a fair market value for her grazing land than the Bureau ever could get.

[jazzdog]

Ironday

that day is not far removed. There are many, many families that have or will be denied "certification" according to certain preordained requirements (with no discernable or outwardly fair standards according to many). If the present process does not help those families with legitimate lineage links then the time has come to assert those past and present lineage rights despite all that we have been told to this moment. The present process focuses so much on the names on the 1886 and 1889 documents. However, history, requires that informed and willing minds look beyond the prose and to see the parameters of the true tragedy that occured in Minnesota during the years of 1862 to 1886. People are people, and that will never change. People will move....voluntarily or involuntarily, away from death and destruction. Benefactors of those moves will and have taken advantage of the movements of the people. If only some are recognized because their names are documented on certain documents at certain times in history because of the circumstances, that neglects to recognize any other deserving individuals and their families that could not, for whatever reason, be present for those particular signings or countings, even though their birthrights may have been just as deserving as those recorded in that fashion in those times and at those dates......People need to recognize when they are being shortchanged by the government. People need to recognize when history is being rewritten by those that profess to know it all. Remember that each individual soul has the right and the strength to stand on its own and to speak the truth. It is needed now more than ever. I will continue to monitor the comments in this regard and look forward to receiving the feedback on these issues. Thanks for your comments and your caring.

Jazzdog

[peacekeeper]

I believe that there is much more to this lawsuit then has been posted on any of the websites. I would advise all of those who have anything to do with this lawsuit to get onto the original listings under the federal claims court and read everything that has been written in Wolfchild vs United States. I also advise the people to have a lawyer look into the case. I am no expert, but I think that there are more documents that will be permissable in court than those we have been told by Dr. Buttes and company. I believe that the judge is there for one purpose and that is to do what is right. I feel that others involved have strayed from the original purpose of this lawsuit and have actually harmed our people in their own misguided ideas and plans. Remember Erick did a great service to our people by taking this to court and winning. However, that does not mean you need to use Dr. Buttes or any other designated person to represent you. Hire someone who you trust and ask them to read the documents that have come from the court. Don't take everything you read on a website as gospel. Sometimes only pieces of info are put on these sites, or the owners of the sites only allow certain information on them. Remember just because it is on a website doesn't mean it is absolutely the only truth. Truth is in the eyes of the beholder. Don't get discouraged, find a lawyer and have them reread everything on this lawsuit, especially from the court's website.

Jackie

[ironday]

I think the judge is there to do what is right; the trick is to know what is "right", in this case by understanding all possible documents and history about our ancestors. In reading the transcript from April 28 I get the impression that the judge is relying quite a bit on the lawyers involved for the "right" information. Yes he knows a lot but this case is so complex I would not be surprised if a judge (human) does not know every little nuance about the history that has played out. According to my reading of the hearing, the government is to turn over their list of names, then MK "gets to" compare the names to their list which the judge seems to agree is "the best", and MK will pick out the Certified LDs and will mail out the privacy act notice to them. Well, this means that MKs list will reign paramount.

[jazzdog]

Ironday

don't give up. MKLaw has their own way of determining who is a qualified lineal descendant and who is not. They are not the final arbitor however. If you and other people and families have not yet been accepted as people that have met MKLaw's staff's "requirements" to qualify as recognized plaintiff lineal descendants, then that is not the end. MKLaw is not the final decisionmaker on the lineal descendancy issue. You need to trust in the information that you have and join in a motion to intervene as prospective plaintiffs if you truly believe your family line qualifies under the Mdewakanton Dakota Sioux lineages. Remember that the people were displaced by those horrible events in 1862 through1885 and the Acts of Congress encompass more than the listed names on the 1886 and/or the 1889 list. Continue to do your research on your anscestors and follow your heart. But you must join in and submit your own motion to intervene as prospective plaintiff lineal descendants before the deadline. There are forces at work now in certain camps seemingly to keep the number of lineal descendants down. The Acts of congress however, surrounding these troublesome times, speak loudly for a more inclusive approaoch to include all of those truly deserving lineal descendants, than to restrict the group. Read the Court's opinion in that regard. MKLaw has done a great job in moving the case forward to this point, but their team is not so receptive to inclusion of all deserving parties as the Court itself is concerned about. If it comes down to a situation where the decisionmakers involved in the MKLaw team need to be challenged on their methods and/or motives, that day will come. If they are not willing to accept your information as meeting their own "requirements" for inclusion in the suit, do not give up. Many true Mdewakanton descendants deserve as much protection under this process as do those that have already been "accepted" as legitimate plaintiffs under the yet undisclosed MKLaw team formula. The judge has appeared to left the door open on inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness.


Jazzdog

[vmarier]

Re: Supreme Court
Another thing to remember is the fact that a birth certificate or baptismal record is not the only form of genealogical evidence. Other items can prove your lineal descendancy such as school records, census records, obituaries, etc. To find out what courts and other genealogicalists will accept as proof of descendancy, search the web with the term: GENEALOGICAL EVIDENCE. If you were turned down by MKlaw office because of lack of a birth certificate but have other documents it would be worth your time to research what other forms of evidence are acceptable and file with another attorney. vmarier

[tamara]

vmarier said:

Re: Supreme Court
Another thing to remember is the fact that a birth certificate or baptismal record is not the only form of genealogical evidence. Other items can prove your lineal descendancy such as school records, census records, obituaries, etc. To find out what courts and other genealogicalists will accept as proof of descendancy, search the web with the term: GENEALOGICAL EVIDENCE. If you were turned down by MKlaw office because of lack of a birth certificate but have other documents it would be worth your time to research what other forms of evidence are acceptable and file with another attorney. vmarier

Good idea, in fact, I was wondering what the accepted standards are for genealogical proof. I had wondered this in regard to previous lawsuits fought and won. What was used to show descendancy? My guess would be that the BIA supplied heirship records for those. I have noticed that Park Books who does the printing for the MHS offers a book on the subject of Genealogical Standard.

Tamara

[redbrother]

jazzdog said:

Ironday

that day is not far removed. There are many, many families that have or will be denied "certification" according to certain preordained requirements (with no discernable or outwardly fair standards according to many). If the present process does not help those families with legitimate lineage links then the time has come to assert those past and present lineage rights despite all that we have been told to this moment. The present process focuses so much on the names on the 1886 and 1889 documents. However, history, requires that informed and willing minds look beyond the prose and to see the parameters of the true tragedy that occured in Minnesota during the years of 1862 to 1886. People are people, and that will never change. People will move....voluntarily or involuntarily, away from death and destruction. Benefactors of those moves will and have taken advantage of the movements of the people. If only some are recognized because their names are documented on certain documents at certain times in history because of the circumstances, that neglects to recognize any other deserving individuals and their families that could not, for whatever reason, be present for those particular signings or countings, even though their birthrights may have been just as deserving as those recorded in that fashion in those times and at those dates......People need to recognize when they are being shortchanged by the government. People need to recognize when history is being rewritten by those that profess to know it all. Remember that each individual soul has the right and the strength to stand on its own and to speak the truth. It is needed now more than ever. I will continue to monitor the comments in this regard and look forward to receiving the feedback on these issues. Thanks for your comments and your caring.

Jazzdog

I agree with this thought, which is one of many.

Have 'all' of the people on the list, as far as anyone can see, visited these boards, if not, then does anyone know if at least most of the people involved with this, know about this board? If not, how do you get everyone together to discuss any possible moves. How can we get everyone to share information with each other and then go from there, on the next best possible moves, now that we know some will be left out? I am speaking on behalf of wether I' am a part of that list or not, and believe 'everyone who can prove lineage' no matter where you are, should be a part of this whole thing, should have a chance to benefit from what is being benefitted. That way 'no one' will be left out and all will be accounted for. There will be no ill will, something that we are not supposed to be. I have always believed that 'all' North American Indians should be benefitting from whatever is being developed anywhere in Indian Country! If you can trace your roots back directly, you should have a chance to be a part of that. I base this thought on the fact that a lot of our ancestors gave there lives, and broken hearts, to save what was left. We are all here because of that. Mr. Kaardal was right when he said 'we are all in this together'! We 'are' all in this together. Everyone needs to keep in mind that any benefits acquired from anything that has to do with wrongs done to any Indigenous persons, by this Goverment, all of these things, these material things come from a lot of spilled blood. This is blood money we are talking about here. When I first learned that, I promised I'd never forget it. I survived 'assimullation'!

[wanbligi]

dgberg said:

does anyone see this case going before the Supreme Court, why or why not? and are we, or some, being over-ambitious to say (back in '04) "we have won and we have won big" should'nt we step back and say isn't that a little (or lot) overconfident? i am not trying to be negative but let's not count the chickens before they hatch. everything is going good but nothing is for sure.

dgberg:

Thank you for your U.S. Supreme Ct. question. I am new to this board so the late response. My opinion is that the U.S. Supreme Court would not hear this case if appealed because of the unique and specific role the U.S. Court of Federal Claims has within the federal judicial process. The U.S. Supreme Ct. does not take or review each case that is appealed to it. One big reason is that it would be too monumental a task to do that for the Court. The U.S. Supreme Court picks and chooses carefully which cases are handled on appeal by that Court.

My opinion would be that unless this Wolfchild case would come up with a totally and unreasonable finding after trial it would probably be remote that the U.S. Supreme Court would accept the case on appeal. It would probably be a refusal to hear the Wolfchild case without comment by the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you for allowing me my opinion. Let's all work together and help one another along the way.

This is wanbligi on January 17, 2007 at 11:38 a.m.