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Post by irishnative on Jul 2, 2014 1:11:02 GMT -5
I'm looking for the name of my wife's great grandmother who was one of the Ogala Lakota Wild Westers who went with William (Wild Bill) Cody to London, England to take part in his show in 1887. She didn't return to America but stayed in England and married a George Colebrooke and lived in Scarborough and had five children. In the 1911 Census in England she called herself Ada Colebrooke but we are not sure if Ada was her real first name. She was born in 1870 and would have been 17 when she left for England.
It would be great if you had the names of those who left for London on March 31, 1887. Many thanks... |
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 2, 2014 13:40:11 GMT -5
You might try Olive Tree Genealogy and look for ships that arrive in or near London England in April,1887.
also try the new York times, the boston herald Archives.the new York times would list passenger manifests in its paper back then.
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 2, 2014 14:31:34 GMT -5
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 2, 2014 15:00:06 GMT -5
here's another link that gives more details on the trip to England in 1887. the show made its first appearance in London on may 9,1887 at threarls court show ground. queen Victoria and her entourage attended it. she later requested a private showing.the show toured Europe for 6 months and returned to the US. segonku.unl.edu/~jheppler/showindian/analysis/show-indians/ |
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Post by irishnative on Jul 2, 2014 21:36:48 GMT -5
Hi Hermin1
Thanks for the quick reply and I will check out those links. I have access to Ancestry and cannot find the marriage record. I used to live near Earls Court Exhibition Center in London which is close to Brompton Cemetery where on 13 June 1892, the American Sioux Indian Chief, Long Wolf, was buried following his death from bronchial pneumonia whilst touring Europe with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, aged 59. Long Wolf's body remained in London for over a century, until a British woman, Elizabeth Knight, a Worcestershire housewife stepped in. She had read a second-hand book by Robert Cunningham Grahame that included a description of Long Wolf's life and burial and described the "neglected grave in a lone corner of a crowded London cemetery." She decided to trace his family, before campaigning with them to have him returned to South Dakota, the land of his fathers. In 1997, Chief Long Wolf was finally moved to a new plot in the Wolf Creek Community Cemetery at Pine Ridge, South Dakota, to rejoin his people on their happy hunting grounds.
On the British Census of 1911, Ada declared she was born in Notting Hill and it isn't clear why she did that!
Thanks for your help in this, most generous of you!
Irishnative (from Belfast)
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 3, 2014 10:14:54 GMT -5
irishnative: one of the references on Mr. Cody's bio, Wikipedia was in reference to a mystery of where the chief was buried. Thank you for the information you posted, it has solved the mystery.
The troupe sailed on the steamer State of Nebraska from New York.it was one of a fleet of ships that was owned by the State Steamship Co. Ltd. In 1891 the company went bankrupt and the steamer with
other ships were sold to the Allan Line.
I just got an idea, it may turn out to be a brain fart, but here goes. See if you can find the birth certificate for your wife's grandmother.it may list her mother's maiden name. if you know when the gr. grandmother died, then you may be able to find her obituary, which may give her parents names, and possibly her maiden name. Did your wife get any info from her mother about her family?
the grt. grandmother would have had to get a passport to travel from the United States.you might try England's immigration and naturalization archives.i can't think of any other avenue to pursue.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 3, 2014 22:38:20 GMT -5
Hello again Herman1
It becomes more interesting: my wife says that her dad told her that her Great Grandmother was the daughter of a chief! I stand to be corrected on this one but think that there were four chiefs accompanying William F. Cody in 1887:
1. Chief American Horse 2. Chief Rocky Bear 3. Chief Flies Above 4. Chief Long Wolf
Below is a picture of Chief Long Wolf taken with his family shortly before his death in London and I don't know if the girl seated is my wife's Great Grandmother.
I cannot find many photographs from that time of the chief's families but below is a photo taken of one of Chief American Horses' daughters:
Thanks, I will try that lead of looking for birth certificate(s) of my wife's grandparents and the obit is another great lead. Ancestry have the monopoly on ship's passenger lists but they cannot seem to find the list for the SS Nebraska which arrived in Gravesend, Kent, England on April 14th 1887.
BTW, happy 4th of July - when you guys threw the Brits out of your country ...we native Irish have been trying it for 800 years and haven't succeeded yet!!
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 4, 2014 0:30:05 GMT -5
irishnative: this is very intrigueing ,I spent three hours yesterday trying to find a link to passenger lists for the various shipping lines,before I found the info on the steamer State of Nebraska.Unfortunately only the records for up to 1873 for the previous owners of the steamship are extant. Darn! Darn!I am not too familiar with the ports in Grt. Britain.Could the steamer have unloaded them at Liverpool?
I will check and see what I can find on the chiefs and their families.Does your wife have any photos of her grt. grandmother?
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 4, 2014 1:16:47 GMT -5
irishnative: Long wolf took his daughter Lizzie and wife 'Wants" with him when he made the last trip with cody's show.Lizzie was only 12 at the time of his death.so we can eliminate her as a possible for the grt. grandmother. www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=10847786 |
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 4, 2014 2:25:59 GMT -5
On that first trip of the show troupe,the families of chiefs Long wolf, American Horse the Younger, and Blue Horse accompanied the chiefs.
American Horse the Younger had a daughter Maggie Stands Looking but she returned to the US.
that leaves the daughters of chief Blue Horse as likely candidates: Jennie blue Horse and Lizzie Blue Horse.Flies Above was single at the time of the frist trip as werelittle bull,little chief.
chief Red shirt had a daughter annie Red Shirt. the bios doesn't give birth dates for the daughters of chiefs Blue Horse and Chief Red shirt,
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 4, 2014 2:29:00 GMT -5
have you considered putting an ad in one of the the native American periodicals asking for information on the grt. grandmother. surely she must have written to her relatives in the US.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 4, 2014 20:44:49 GMT -5
Herman1: Many thanks, you have certainly narrowed things down considerably to the daughters of two chiefs: Blue Horse and Red Shirt. Lizzie Blue horse died of consumption in 1891 so that just leaves Jennie Blue Horse or Annie Red Shirt the daughter of Chief Red Shirt. My wife's great grandmother was born in 1870 which would make her 17 when she accompanied the William Cody Wild West Show to London. Her firstborn was 14 when the 1911 Census was taken in England which meant that she was probably married circa 1896 when she was 26. I'm still in the process of trying to find out more family information such as what age was she when she met her husband. If my math is correct she probably remained with the Cody Show for nine or so years and if this is the case she might have returned to the US at least once between 1887 and 1896. Apparently the show moved from London to Salford, Manchester in 1888 where there is mention of another chief: Charging Thunder (see BBC link: media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/70/8c/e8708c80b61ad56acf7c73d0ac6848f8.jpg)who left the group got his Brit citizenship, married an American stable girl and he settled in Salford. I digress! The key thing now is to find a family picture of the G-Grandmother ...still looking for that...appreciate your help... |
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 5, 2014 10:09:39 GMT -5
that first group returned to the US 6 months after they landed in Britain,so she couldn't have stayed in England.i agree with you,that she must have returned to the Reservation.cody and the group did return to Europe in 1888, and several more times.
I don't have access to ancestry's international records,just the US records.No you didn't digress.the information is interesting if not pertinent to our mystery.
whatever you can find out from your wife and her relatives will help us.
can you post, or send me a copy of, the census sheet for that british Census?
my email is andreanna.kounas@yahoo.com
have you tried that free web site called free BMD?they have been posting marriage,birth, and death records for England and Wales.
whatwas the occupation of the grt. grandmother's husband?
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Post by irishnative on Jul 5, 2014 20:29:33 GMT -5
I guessed she must have gone back to Pine Ridge to her family which makes perfect sense. I will contact your email address with some other details and the Gt. Grandmother's husband was a dentist. Thanks for BMD - very useful indeed! Still cannot find any photographs of Jennie Blue Horse and I wonder if there are any surviving relatives in Pine Ridge who might have a photograph? (not having much luck with that over here)
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 6, 2014 13:32:16 GMT -5
I don't know anybody from Pine Ridge or I would ask them to see what they can find.
I just had another thought or maybe a brain Fart(hahaha).the South Dakota Historical Society Archives in Pierre may have some info on Cody's wild west show, possibly on the ones that went over to England.
I will check the Pine Ridge Indian Censuses,on Chief Blue Horse, Long Wolf,American Horse the Younger also went by Cannot Walk.They would do a census @ every two years,so by comparing censuses for 1887 and 1889 may help us narrow down possible candidates.
When you write to me at my Email, please include Buffalo Bill Cody Troupe in the subject, otherwise I would delete it.
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Post by mn1972 on Jul 7, 2014 9:57:34 GMT -5
irishnative, This is information I found on Family Search, the LDS website: familysearch.org/search1911 Census: Scarborough, Yorkshire(North Riding) England George Colebrooke b. Tunbridge Wells, Kent age 44 Ada Colebrooke b. Notting Hill London age 41 George Lewis Colebrooke b. Barnes Surrey age 13 Dorothy Colebrook b. Barnes Surrey age 11 William Ewart Colebrooke b. Barnes Surrey age 8 Kity Colebrooke b. Ealing Middlesex age 5 Alfred Colebrooke b. Scarborough Yorkshire age 4 Since the first child was born in Barnes Surrey I went back to look for a Marriage in Surrey and figured out that a George Colebrooke married Ada Lovell in 1896. The next thing I did was google "George Colebrooke" "Ada Lovell" and I found the following website with information about the Lovell Family at Barnes Surrey: (Ada is about halfway down under Duriah Lovell). Ada and George were married 10/9/1896. www.gypsyjib.com/page/Lovell+family+of+Barnes+SurreySorry but I just don't think Ada was Native American. Judy |
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 7, 2014 10:45:33 GMT -5
Mn1972 thank you so much for your help with this search. I would agree with you re. Ada not being Indian, based on the info you found.
Irish native do you have anything that would contradict these findings?
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 12:54:46 GMT -5
I don't know anybody from Pine Ridge or I would ask them to see what they can find. I just had another thought or maybe a brain Fart(hahaha).the South Dakota Historical Society Archives in Pierre may have some info on Cody's wild west show, possibly on the ones that went over to England. I will check the Pine Ridge Indian Censuses,on Chief Blue Horse, Long Wolf,American Horse the Younger also went by Cannot Walk.They would do a census @ every two years,so by comparing censuses for 1887 and 1889 may help us narrow down possible candidates. When you write to me at my Email, please include Buffalo Bill Cody Troupe in the subject, otherwise I would delete it. Hello Again!
Thanks for your help so far. I see that mn1972 has located the census but there is a problem as the Ada Colebrooke who is listed with George Colebrooke on that census is an anomaly. She gives her age as 41 on the Ancestry document which would mean she was born circa 1870 and her birthplace as Notting Hill, Kensington. There is no record on BMD for any Ada born in Notting Hill in 1870 other than an Ada Lovell born in December 1861 who incidentally is married to a George Colebrooke but this Ada couldn't be the correct and that George Colebrook is someone else. (there are lots of George Colebrooke's in Kent, including some aristocrats!). So who is Ada Colebrooke mentioned on the 1911 Census? I'm completely baffled. All the descendants of Ada (particularly the men) have native features so there is no doubt that she was native and she said that her father was a native chief. So was she Annie Redshirt or Jennie Blue Horse?
Jennie Blue Horse was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Chief Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken on June 30, 1896 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Wakpamini District, Shannon Co., South Dakota, USA. So right up to 1896, this Jennie was single and unmarried so if this is the person we seek, did she leave the US to return to England to meet George Colebrooke? If you have access to those rolls can you find out if she is mentioned again in 1898 and if so, she is not the missing Great-Grandmother. That would leave Annie Red Shirt as the other possibility and I cannot find any information on her at all other than her photograph and there was no date given for this:
There is another picture, taken in Italy in 1889 which I believe is her standing (last one on right) behind her father Chief Red Shirt (alongside the Cody party):
There seems to be no marriage certificate between Ada and George Colebrooke in the BMD database so the only way of proving her identity might be through US sources and maybe the Cody Collection of information? Ships manifests would also trace her movements but these are not easy to access over here.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 12:58:27 GMT -5
irishnative, This is information I found on Family Search, the LDS website: familysearch.org/search1911 Census: Scarborough, Yorkshire(North Riding) England George Colebrooke b. Tunbridge Wells, Kent age 44 Ada Colebrooke b. Notting Hill London age 41 George Lewis Colebrooke b. Barnes Surrey age 13 Dorothy Colebrook b. Barnes Surrey age 11 William Ewart Colebrooke b. Barnes Surrey age 8 Kity Colebrooke b. Ealing Middlesex age 5 Alfred Colebrooke b. Scarborough Yorkshire age 4 Since the first child was born in Barnes Surrey I went back to look for a Marriage in Surrey and figured out that a George Colebrooke married Ada Lovell in 1896. The next thing I did was google "George Colebrooke" "Ada Lovell" and I found the following website with information about the Lovell Family at Barnes Surrey: (Ada is about halfway down under Duriah Lovell). Ada and George were married 10/9/1896. www.gypsyjib.com/page/Lovell+family+of+Barnes+SurreySorry but I just don't think Ada was Native American. Judy |
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 13:18:02 GMT -5
Hello Judy
If you check out my reply to Herman1 you will see that according to BMD, Ada Lovell was born in 1861 and this doesn't jive with the information on the Census that Ada Colebrooke was born in 1870 it's also a different George Colebrooke, as the one in question is George William H Colebrooke. I just looked that up on BDM and there is a record of his marriage in December 1898 in Dover, Kent, so I will do some more checking today in Ancestry for that marriage to find out the name of the bride. There were many George Colebrooke's around at that time including some Knights like Sir George Colebrooke.
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