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Post by mn1972 on Jul 7, 2014 15:23:50 GMT -5
Irishnative,
How do you explain that in the 1911 census from Scarbough three of their children were born in Barnes Surrey? Also listed below is the 1901 census, with the two oldest children, for Barnes Surrey
England 1901 Surrey Census
George Colebrooke-head household-b.1868 Tunbridge Wells residence Barnes Surrey
Ada Colebrooke --wife-b. 1864 Notting Hill residence Barnes, Surrey
George L. Colebrooke-son- b. 1898 Barnes, Surrey residence Barnes Surrey
Dorothy Colebrooke-daughter- b. 1900 Barnes Surrey residence Barnes Surrey
Herbert Colebrooke-brother-b. 1878 Tunbridge Wells residence Barnes Surrey
Concerning the features of the decendents looking native, the Lovell family from Barnes Surrey were of gypsy decent.
I checked the LDS website and George William H. Colebrook from Kent married Catherine Shaw in 1898.
Judy
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 19:03:48 GMT -5
Judy:
The Lowell Family don't factor into this search as Ada Lowell was born in 1861 and she would have been 50 at the time of the 1911 census whereas Ada Colebrooke declared she was 41. The George Colebrooke she married is someone completely different so that Lowell-Colebrooke connection don't factor into the equation gypsy or not.
I am really impressed that you could find a name for George Colebrooke's wife (Catherine Shaw) and you must let me into the secret of how that's done as I couldn't find her linked to George Colebrooke on BMD. As you know this still doesn't solve the riddle as to what was Ada Colebrooke's single name. This also begs the question: how did someone called Catherine become Ada. I think the only answer is to send off for the official marriage certificate from the UK Government and that will provide a lot of useful information
Surrey is 46 miles from Tunbridge Wells and it's possible that George William had a dentists practice there so his children were born in the area where he worked. He probably moved to work in other locations which explains the other address changes. Don't know if that answers your question?
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 7, 2014 20:43:05 GMT -5
Irishnative:chief Blue horse ad 2 daughters lizzy and jenny. I will see what I can find re. jenny Blue Horse and Annie Red shirt.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 21:17:06 GMT -5
Irishnative:chief Blue horse ad 2 daughters lizzy and jenny. I will see what I can find re. jenny Blue Horse and Annie Red shirt. Hello Herman1 and thanks for offering to check that. Found this online:
The nationality of Jennie Blue Horse was Oglala Lakota Sioux.
Jennie Blue Horse was born in 1870 or 71.
She was the daughter of Blue Horse and his wife Council Fire.
Another source states that she was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken in 1886 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Dakota Territory, USA.
She was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken on July 1, 1890 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, White Clay District, Shannon Co., South Dakota, USA.
She was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken on July 1, 1894 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Shannon Co., South Dakota, USA.
She was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken on June 30, 1895 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Shannon Co., South Dakota, USA.
She was listed as "daughter" and residing in the home of Blue Horse on the U.S. Indian Census Rolls taken on June 30, 1896 at Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, Wakpamini District, Shannon Co., South Dakota, USA.
There appears to be no trace of her after 1896 which begs some questions:
1. Where did she move to after 1896?
2. Did she get her name changed in order to move to England? (assuming that's where she went)
I double-checked BMD and a George William H. Colebrooke married a Catherine Shaw in 1898. It's possible that the name "Ada" she used for the 1911 Census was a nickname and not her real name.
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 7, 2014 21:46:35 GMT -5
jennieBlue Horse married at pine Ridge to a man named Good Horse in 1897. Annie Red shirt was still single in 1900 at Pine Ridge.
chief Blue Horse I found had 2 other other daughters,Lizzie Blue Horse,but no record of her at Pine Ridge.and Fannie Blue Horse. Fannie was married at pine Ridge.
that leaves us lizzie Blue horse as a possible candidate.
irish native,many of the Dakota Sioux became Christianized and were given Christian first names before and after 1862.
didn't the British list occupations of their citizens in their censuses?
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Post by irishnative on Jul 7, 2014 23:34:30 GMT -5
Hi Herman1 It looks like we've come to the end of the line here with Chief Blue Horse's family: now that it's confirmed that Jennie blue Horse got married as she was the big hope here for my research. Her sister Lizzie died of consumption circa 1887 and the last daughter Fanny got married so that is the end of that as far as the Blue Horse family goes! I'm not sure if Annie Red Shirt is a possibility as there isn't much information on Ancestry or on Google except photographs. What I can confirm is that my wife's G. Grandfather George William H. Colebrooke married one Catherine Shaw in December 1889 at Dover, Kent. Catherine is a complete mystery at the moment in the family and the only way of finding out more about her would be to write to the British General Records Office for a copy of the marriage certificate. The family are adamant about her connection to the William Cody Show and about her Sioux origins - but it is beginning to look like she wasn't the daughter of a chief. I have made contact with the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming: centerofthewest.org/research/mccracken-research-library/ for any references to her in their files. The Brits do list occupations in their Census and unfortunately they have a 100 year moratorium on census records so the 1921 Census won't be released until 2021!!! I will keep you updated with whatever I find out and I'm sure grateful for your help. In the words of my native Gaelic language: "Go mbeannaà Dia duit agus is cuma cad bóthair taisteal tú ar ..." (May God bless you and whatever road you travel on...) |
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Post by mn1972 on Jul 8, 2014 10:37:43 GMT -5
irishnative, I found the information about George William H. Colebrooke on Family search, the LDS website. The mormans started collecting genealogy documents several decades ago. Here is a link to their site: familysearch.org/searchWhen you get to this site enter: First name- George Last name- Colebrooke Country- England State or Province-click here and a drop down appears, go down to Kent and click. then just hit -Match all terms exactly then-search As far as Ada's age on the 1911 census it just depends on who gave the census taker the information. Why are you so certain that it is George William H. Colebrook from Kent that you are looking for? There seem to be a couple of George's in Kent that were born between 1867 & 1870, one George who's father was Alfred, and in the 1911 census George Colebrooke did have a son named Alfred. Judy |
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Post by irishnative on Jul 8, 2014 23:17:02 GMT -5
Judy:
Once again, thanks for that very useful information and that Latter Day Saints site is really cool.
It seems to be all too easy to reach conclusions in ancestor-searches and I will check out the other possibility that George William H may not be the real George - thanks for that. The other interesting thing (but it may be a coincidence) that there are/were lots of Catherine's in the family which gives rise to the possibility of Catherine Shaw as the mother! One of George and Ada's children was called Kity which is a derivative of Kitty or Kathleen/Catherine, who actually lived to be 105 - unlike her mother who died at 69 in 1938 in Bradford. I'll check out that other George whose father was Alfred and see what his wife was called.
Do you know whatever became of Annie Red Shirt, Chief Red Shirt's daughter, as I cannot find out any information about her at all?
Jennie Blue Horse the other possibility got married and so did her only other surviving sister Fanny and settled in Pine Ridge so they are both ruled out in terms of this search.
Many Thanks
Irishnative
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Post by irishnative on Jul 8, 2014 23:38:54 GMT -5
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Post by irishnative on Jul 9, 2014 2:29:25 GMT -5
After all my excitement, Anna Mary Red Shirt (aka Annie Red Shirt) daughter of Joseph Red Shirt and In Sight, was the wife of Oliver Salway - Oglala - 1900. Sorry, mistook the search string in LDS as a result. I still cannot see a marriage certificate for George Colebrooke (born in 1867) and do think he is the right Colebrooke...just a big mystery here!
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Post by mn1972 on Jul 9, 2014 9:09:32 GMT -5
Irish native, Interesting that you said this about Ada: ~~unlike her mother who died at 69 in 1938 in Bradford~~ The website about the Lovell Family in Barnes Surrey said the same thing about Ada Lovell who was married to a George Colebrooke. ~~ Ada died 19/6/1938 aged 69~~ www.gypsyjib.com/page/Lovell+family+of+Barnes+SurreyJudy |
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Post by irishnative on Jul 9, 2014 23:08:51 GMT -5
Judy:
Thank you for this link which bears investigation - Ada from a Romani gypsy family is a stretch as at least three relatives have independently said that Ada told them she was a participant in the Bill Cody show in England. The only definitive proof would be to find out the names of those involved in the show or even find ship's manifests and see where that leads.
I have discovered lots of family trees associated with Ada Lovell and am looking into that. As you said before: there are so many George Colebrooke's out there ...all of them should be checked out. it's curious though that all the family trees of Ada Lovell mention George Colebrooke's family members given in the 1911 Census so where they all wrong too? The "jury" is still out on that one.
Appreciate your help and insights!
Colum
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 10, 2014 10:00:57 GMT -5
irish native and Judy: The family insists that she was part of the cody show. thus we must rule out any gypsies.Also Irish native says that George was a dentist.
could the grt. grandmother have been a mixed blood?
Annie was born @1880,so she would have been @16/17 yrs old in 1896.
irish native the ball is in your court. Pump the family for more info.
what were the names of George and the grt. grandmother's children?
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 10, 2014 10:24:48 GMT -5
the 1897 pine ridge Census liste annie at @age 18 living with her parents, and brothers at Pine ridge.
So we can rule out annie as well.
irish native is on the right track to find who went with Cody on all his tours of Europe. maybe a different chief(s)with family(s) went on the tours after 1887.it is also possible the daughter wasn't one of a chief's family but of other Pine ridge native americans who went to Eurpe.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 10, 2014 20:34:10 GMT -5
Thanks again Herman1,
There are some problems with Ada Colebrooke. In the 1911 Census she declared she was 41 (therefore born 1870), a year younger than her husband George who declared he was 42 (born 1869). If she was Ada Lovell, born in 1862 from Notting Hill, she would have been 49 at the time of the census, not 41 and would have got married at 34 which wasn't the Victorian norm or 21 max.
So if she wasn't Ada Lovell then who was she? All of the 3 families on Ancestry who made use of the 1911 Census, overlooked that fact when they added her and her family to their trees and they assumed that she was the same Ada Lovell of gypsy descent they were looking for. The names of the children are all correct on the 1911 Census and tie in with known family information.
I'm beginning to think, as an amateur time-detective, that some credence should be given to stories handed down and conversations overheard as three independent relatives here, including her own daughter Kity (who died just recently) spoke of her mother being part of the Buffalo Bill show. One of them thought she was the daughter of a chief but we now know that wasn't the case as both Annie Red Shirt and Jennie Blue Horse got married before 1900 to Oglala tribe members. It's more likely that she was one of the general cast of the show and may have been distantly related to a chief.
I'm back searching for the names of the cast (which must exist somewhere) and will be checking for marriages in the US so stay tuned!
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 10, 2014 23:59:14 GMT -5
if you have ancestry,do a search for George Colebrooke in the US.
The group returned to Europe in 1888 and toured there until 1892. they then returned there in 1906.
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Post by irishnative on Jul 11, 2014 1:00:12 GMT -5
Good idea, will take a look...thanks!
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Post by irishnative on Jul 11, 2014 13:19:12 GMT -5
Herman1
Found a George Colebrooke (birth circa 1868-1870) on Ancestry who arrived in New York on a ship called the Assyrian on 22 February 1890 heading for Wyoming, Minnesota. Still looking!
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Post by hermin1 on Jul 12, 2014 12:36:40 GMT -5
I tsearched for George in south Dakota at the Heritage quest censuses,but no luck. so he didn't marry the grt. grandmother in south Dakota. does ancestry have anything on him returning to England between 1892 and 1896 or 1897? try www.ellisislandrecords.org and search for him there until at least 1932. if he returned with her to the states during that period they would be listed. She would be listed at the Pine ridge Res. but not him,because he was unallotted. |
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