Bedard Lionais Menard Picotte Rulo Traversier,

[BIG JON]

Wi-Iyohi Fur Trading Establishments:

www.scribd.com/doc/23299478/Wi-Iyohi-Fur-Trade-Trading-D-Hist-Soc

I think this is appropriate to this discussion. Let me know. Jon

And this is a great map of the period:

[akhummingbird]

Nov 28, 2009 12:35:54 GMT -5 dean said:

Hello Helen & Barbara
I have been trying to pin Felicite to Honore Picotte as her father for years but have had no success yet.
Barbara's theories have Felicite being born in 1830.
Her tombstone in the LaPlante cemetery reads she was born in 1815 and died in 1895.
She supposedly married Traversie around 1837.
Her first child was born in 1844.
The earliest I can put Picotte in that area is around 1820.
If you go by her census of 1860 it is stated she's 37.
That would put her being born about 1822-23.
If you go by the 1885 Indian census, she gets younger instead of older! LOL

Ah - thank you Dean. I did notice that the 1860 census had Felicite as being born in 1922-23...which would have made her definitely older than the other Menard sisters. I didn't know about the tombstone.

One other thing - my grandmother said that the Sioux word for "sister" is the same as "cousin". I need to verify that. But if true, then all these claims of being a sister to Charles F and/or the Menard girls - may really be about being cousins.

warm regards,
Barbara

[BIG JON]

Looking for clarification of the name Wah Ka Ken Do, is there a better translation than "The one who comes from war"
Helen


A lot of the early (and later for that matter) indian census/treaties have translations that do not even reflect the Lakota words that they supposedly translate. This may be due to many factors.

Sometimes they are using what is called 'old Lakota" or 'The old Language'. Lakota is an evolving language and many words have been forgotten and new ones have been made. (notice that in the treaty that you quote, there are many names that are not 'correct'.)

Another reason is that literacy was in short order during these times. Also many different languages were used...English, French, Scottish, Lakota...etc.

Many Lakota had numerous names and might have used them all at one time or another. Nicknames are (I believe) an extension of extra names used by lakota today. (we all know somebody that currently goes by their nickname)

I found a book posted on the Internet Archive that may have some information that you are looking for.

--Past and Present of Sioux City and Woodbury County-Constance Marks (1904)

Link:

www.archive.org/details/pastpresentofsio01mark

{It is noted that this download has a few pages missing}

[elevine]

And this is a great map of the period:

BIG JON
It IS a great map! Thanks! Where can I find the rest of it?

[BIG JON]

Sorry, that's all there is of that one. Jon

[Spirit of the Owl Woman]

This has been a wonderful discussion and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading because I too, have been wondering about this relationships.

First, I would like to know why it is "virtually impossible" for a half-breed to be born with blue eyes? Highly improbable but "virtually impossible" does not seem to be a viable response.

Bruguier, Traversie, Bedard, and Menard were initially "mountain men" who in order to conduct their business ventures, lived, spoke, dressed and followed the Sioux customs and traditions; they became adopted men of the Sioux. And, they strove to marry the daughters of chiefs, not unlike the royalty system of Europe. Marrying these women insured a certain protection and assistance with their fur trapping and trading with the other men of the tribe.

Regarding Lizette (Lis or Lisette) LaCharite; her parents were Jean Francois LaCharite, born in Canada, abt 1770 - 1860 (North Dakota). He

[akhummingbird]

Jan 7, 2010 19:34:29 GMT -5 Spirit of the Owl Woman said:

First, I would like to know why it is "virtually impossible" for a half-breed to be born with blue eyes? Highly improbable but "virtually impossible" does not seem to be a viable response.

Lavanah - long time no hear - Happy New Year to you! Peace.

I do not agree with the quote above. The quote came from a Traverise descendant on Ancestry.com.

I believe half breeds can be born with blue eyes. I know for certain that a quarter breed in my family was born with blue eyes.

Helen - if you are still following this conversation - did you ever get the book you referenced above and get more info on the source of the claim about the Indian woman who was "married" to Picotte?

cheers,
Barbara

[scararm]

Hello
I know there was a woman named Plegie Menard who was married to Honore Goulet died 1863 and he married Louise Giroux One of Honore daughters married James Garvie Santee her sister Margret married a Kieth. The daughter of who married james Garvie was the grandaughter of Feather Earring who had a sister name Amelia Walking Blanket who married Matilda Eagle woman Galpins brother Two Lance.

Scar Arm
_______________
check out the 1902 Santee Register Indian Families(or 1902 Santee Census).
James W. Garvie's wife was a Redwing.her mother was anna Redwing, and father not listed. His parents were a Scotsman and a Mdewakanton full blood female.

[hermin1]

re the color of eyes. It is neither impossible nor improbable for a mixed blood to have blue eyes genetically speaking.

[helen]

Barbara
The book by Tanis Thorne "The Many Hands of My Relations" and the statement about Menard/Picotte/Chenie is copied from this book, exactly the same as it appeared in the other book. There are two references listed: Letters recieved Great nemaha Agency RG 75 M234 R309 which is a microfilm and Falls City Courthouse Marriage Record 1856-1867. The Falls City marriage records are on the internet smewhere but I haven't searched yet. I believe the latter references the marriage of Wa ko tah kende to 'an Anglo American' as it stated in the book too bad it doesn't say 'who' the Anglo American is but as I recall the list of Falls City marriages isn't horribly long. It's possible that none of the sources will give us any more information other than what is written in the book: 5 children between the three of them.
Helen

[akhummingbird]

Hello Helen,

Thanks for the name of the book. I will look for it here. Looks good.

So let's go with the theory that there's a woman named Wa Ko Tah Kende (a Yankton from the chiefly line of Little Crow*) who had 5 children by 3 trading partners Menard/ Picotte/ Chenie** between 1831 and 1842.
[*Altho' I have to note that Little Crow was Santee, not Yankton - so something is amiss...]

Which of Menard's biological children would be Wa Ko Tah Kende's biological child? So far, my notes say that 7 of Menard's children were from Kinyan Hiya Win (or Klanhaywin) aka Flys By Woman - including 3 girls (Amelia, Rosalie and Sophie) and 4 boys. That leaves either Pelagie or Felicitte Scar-Arm Dusant or ?

**Other complications to consider - beside Louis Menard, there is also a Pierre Menard who traded; and beside Honore Picotte, there was a Joseph Picotte who was a trader.

okay -I've hurt my head enough tonight...goodnight!

warm regards,
Barbara

[roubidou]

Hi everyone, regards the book The Many Hands of My Relations" by Tanis thorne and the statement about Menard/Picotte/Chenie sarhing same woman, and the reference to the microfilm: Letters recieved Great nemaha Agency RG 75 M234 R309 : I just reviewed this entire microfilm and Tanis thorne book above has published unfortunately inaccurate information about what is on this film, i.e., Wa ko ta kende was a Yankton Warrior, NOT a woman and Wako ta kende (who is also listed on the yankton treaty) was the father of the woman named Margo/Marguerite, a woman who did have several children between Menard, possibly Chenie and questionably Honore Picotte. I copied all the information off the microfilm and will post it here in a couple of days. The microfilm also lists Felicity Dusant Traversie as a Santee half breed, but has no information linking her to the Menard Yankton half breed girls, and as suggested by the 1858 Yankton Treaty. more to follow......

[DawnDay]

Jan 7, 2010 19:34:29 GMT -5 Spirit of the Owl Woman said:

This has been a wonderful discussion and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading because I too, have been wondering about this relationships.

First, I would like to know why it is "virtually impossible" for a half-breed to be born with blue eyes? Highly improbable but "virtually impossible" does not seem to be a viable response.

Bruguier, Traversie, Bedard, and Menard were initially "mountain men" who in order to conduct their business ventures, lived, spoke, dressed and followed the Sioux customs and traditions; they became adopted men of the Sioux. And, they strove to marry the daughters of chiefs, not unlike the royalty system of Europe. Marrying these women insured a certain protection and assistance with their fur trapping and trading with the other men of the tribe.

Regarding Lizette (Lis or Lisette) LaCharite; her parents were Jean Francois LaCharite, born in Canada, abt 1770 - 1860 (North Dakota). He

Lavanah,
First off, long time no hear... Second, as you know my uncle is Wm. Arthur Bruguier and his daughter's children all have blue eyes. As do my half Brother (Rod Feather from Feather in his ear) and my half Sister's children all have blue eyes. I wondered why, when we were all suppose to be l/2 blood, tho I might be a little over half as my father was almost full blood. But always wondered why both 1st cousins, Bruguier & Feathers both had grandchildren all with blue eyes. So that would answer more blue in the DNA, I guess. Anyway, just thought I would put in my two cents. As a curiosity, to why my children all have brown eyes, with us being the same blood degree...

Rene'e (Dawnday)

[roubidou]

Responding late to all these messages about Menard/Bedard/Rulo:
Charles Picotte was not a brother nor a half brother nor stepbrother to the Menard sisters. Email me regards the parents of each of these people. I have the affidavits of Louis Menard and Picotte and others regards the half breed lineages from the National Archives. Additionally, there are no church or government documents listing Louis Menard having a wife named Rosalie, nor listing Rosalie as a mother to any of his children that I have found, let me know if anything exists. Possibly Rosalie Moitie died in St. Louis. Since Klanhaywin was not a half breed, but a full blood Yankton Sioux, a daughter of a warrier named SeaTanka, there is no reason to believe Louis needed to marry Klanhaywin in St. Louis, rather than among the tribe she grew up with. Her name means Flies By Woman.

[roubidou]

One other discussion point: blue eyes: Generally true blue eyes are from a recessive gene, meaning you have to get it from both the paternal and maternal lines; hence it takes one from the mother and one from the father to have a blue eyed child. Having said that, it is still possible to have a remote ancestor with blue eyes, have that gene passed on thru several generations, and when combined with another parent having either blue eyes, or an ancestor with blue eyes, to end up with a blue eyed child. So it doesn't mean the child is actually half breed white but could even be 7/8 Indian and 1/8 white, but it means that both the parents had to have a blue eyed person in their ancestry somewhere, and would likely have been caucasiaion, and statistically, not far too many generations back. So a blue eyed child in an Indian family with parents who have brown or hazel eyes means both parents likely had a caucasian ancestor somewhere, but it doesn't mean the child is half white or 3/4 white. The eye color also is segregated/not linked with skin color. Brown is dominant over blue or hazel. Hazel is usually dominant over blue.

[roubidou]

'Big Foot' (SeaTanka) of the Yankton, father of Mele Menard, is not same person as Big Foot of the Brule band famous in Wounded Knee massacre. Time periods are wrong.

Regards