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Post by mrharmon on Aug 6, 2009 15:04:21 GMT -5
DawnDay-was so glad to read your post, I had given up researching after a while, and had to admit I could not find anything else, but this gives me more hope. Visible Lightening was my gg grandmother on my moms dads side. I HAD LOOKED ALL OVER AND FINALLY FOUND THEM IN C.C. CENSUS, If you find any thing more please e-mail me. Thanks rosebudwoman2002@yahoo.com
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Post by hermin1 on Aug 7, 2009 6:52:33 GMT -5
mrharmon,a hearty welcome to our website. I believe we have some information on Cloud that Stops Four Times and the Carpenters elsewhere on our website. I don't remember which of the secitons in the index the information is at, so please browse through the various sections, and you will find the discussion with information.
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Aug 14, 2009 12:34:11 GMT -5
I JUST HEARD A STORY TODAY ABOUT CLOUD THAT STOPS 4 TIMES, APPARENTLY HER HUSBAND WICOSAYATAPI (KING) WAS IN THE MINNESOTA UPRISING, AND WAS APPARENTLY HUNG .RIGHT AWAY. HIS WIFE 4 CLOUD THAT STOPS 4 TIMES AND HER HUSBAND WERE FRIENDS WITH A WHITE FAMILY AT THE TIME, AND SINCE THE WHITE FAMILY LIKED KING AND HIS WIFE VERY MUCH THEY HID 4 CLOUD AND HER DAUGHTERS LUCY CARPENTER AND VISIBLE LIGHTNING, WHILE THEY WERE THERE THE DAUGHTERS WONDERED AROUND TO THE MISSOURI RIVER WHILE THEY WERE IN HIDING AND GOT TO KNOW A RIVERBOAT CAPTAIN WHO WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER AND A WEALTHY MAN, WHO LIKED THE GIRLS VERY MUCH. HE TOOK ALOT OF PICTURES OF THE GIRLS AND THEY WERE SAID TO BE BEAUTIFUL. THE PICTURES EXIST SOME PLACE. THE PICTURES OF THE GIRLS WERE HANDED DOWN BY LUCY CARPENTER'S SON WM. CARPENTER, WHO HANDED THEM DOWN TO HERMAN AND VICTORIA ICEBERG, WHO LOANED THEM OUT TO ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE FAMILY. THE PICTURES WERE SAID TO HAVE BEEN SHOWN AT A FAMILY REUNION 2002 OR 2003. IT WOULD PROVE THAT LUCY CARPENTER AND DAUGHTERS WERE IN MINNESOTA, AT THE TIME OF THE UPRISING. IT IS A STORY THAT HAS BEEN HANDED DOWN THROUGH FAMILY MEMBERS. IT WOULD BE WONDERFUL TO BE ABLE TO SEE A COPY OF THE PICTURES. MY HOPE IS THAT THEY COULD BE SHARED BY ALL THE FAMILY MEMBERS. :) THANK YOU, DAWNDAY: ) :) :) :) :) DAWNDAY
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Aug 14, 2009 15:42:59 GMT -5
I JUST HEARD A STORY TODAY ABOUT CLOUD THAT STOPS 4 TIMES, APPARENTLY HER HUSBAND WICOSAYATAPI (KING) WAS IN THE MINNESOTA UPRISING, AND WAS APPARENTLY HUNG .RIGHT AWAY. HIS WIFE 4 CLOUD THAT STOPS 4 TIMES AND HER HUSBAND WERE FRIENDS WITH A WHITE FAMILY AT THE TIME, AND SINCE THE WHITE FAMILY LIKED KING AND HIS WIFE VERY MUCH THEY HID 4 CLOUD AND HER DAUGHTERS LUCY CARPENTER AND VISIBLE LIGHTNING, WHILE THEY WERE THERE THE DAUGHTERS WONDERED AROUND TO THE MISSOURI RIVER WHILE THEY WERE IN HIDING AND GOT TO KNOW A RIVERBOAT CAPTAIN WHO WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER AND A WEALTHY MAN, WHO LIKED THE GIRLS VERY MUCH. HE TOOK ALOT OF PICTURES OF THE GIRLS AND THEY WERE SAID TO BE BEAUTIFUL. THE PICTURES EXIST SOME PLACE. THE PICTURES OF THE GIRLS WERE HANDED DOWN BY LUCY CARPENTER'S SON WM. CARPENTER, WHO HANDED THEM DOWN TO HERMAN AND VICTORIA ICEBERG, WHO LOANED THEM OUT TO ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE FAMILY. THE PICTURES WERE SAID TO HAVE BEEN SHOWN AT A FAMILY REUNION 2002 OR 2003. IT WOULD PROVE THAT LUCY CARPENTER AND DAUGHTERS WERE IN MINNESOTA, AT THE TIME OF THE UPRISING. IT IS A STORY THAT HAS BEEN HANDED DOWN THROUGH FAMILY MEMBERS. IT WOULD BE WONDERFUL TO BE ABLE TO SEE A COPY OF THE PICTURES. MY HOPE IS THAT THEY COULD BE SHARED BY ALL THE FAMILY MEMBERS. THANK YOU, DAWNDAY: ) Dawnday I can’t believe that I missed this post back in Sept. 2008. I have been researching the Indian ancestry of Lorraine Isburg Flaws since 2002. Over that time I have accumulated a lot of information backed by documents to use as sources. Lucy Carpenter was born around 1840-41. She was married (Indian Custom) for the first time to Charlie Carpenter, a French fur trader, about 1850-51. Her son, William Carpenter was born near old Ft. Pierre around 1851. Charlie Carpenter died before William was born. Lucy married for the second time to High Bear about 1855. She had a daughter born between 1856-58. She died young. Lucy had another daughter, Susan High Bear, born in 1865. High Bear had previously been married to Lucy’s older sister, Elizabeth. Lucy Carpenter’s sister Emma (WAKANKDITANINWIN) was born in 1831. She married a fur trader and had a son Thomas Tompkins born about 1870. In 1862 Lucy was a woman who had been married twice and had three children. She was not living in Minnesota with her mother Four Cloud as she was here around this area with High Bear. You mention that while they were in hiding they met a river boat captain who was wealthy and took pictures of Four Cloud’s beautiful daughters and the pictures were handed down through the family to William’s daughter from his third wife, Victoria (Carpenter) and Herman Isburg. These pictures were to have been taken to a family reunion back in 2002-2003. This is not correct. The riverboat captain was Lee Wickem, who was the father of Mary Wickem who was Williams’s third wife. She was born in 1860 somewhere between Crow Creek and Cheyenne Eagle Butte. I was at the Isburg-Werner reunion both years 2002-2003 and Sandy Isburg, grand-daughter of Victoria (Carpenter) Isburg was there and showed everyone pictures. They were not of Lucy or Emma. They were of Williams wife’s Mary Wickem’s family. You say there was a white family named Carpenter in Minnesota at the time of the uprising who was friendly with both King and Four Cloud and that they gave their name to the girls so they could hide. Incorrect. Lucy got her name by marrying Charlie Carpenter. There were two people named Carpenter on some of the Crow Creek Indian Censuses. They are not related to these Carpenters. The name Rendeau appears as part of Charlie Carpenters name in the baptismal book for Crow Creek. He is listed as the father of Lucy Carpenter (Charlie Rendeau Carpenter). We are still researching that name but have found nothing here yet as it probably comes from his being French/French Canadian. We have no idea where all your information came from as it was not put out by anyone in the Carpenter/Isburg family. I hope what I have written helps. Please contact me if you would like more information about the Carpenters. Thanks, Donna Kentch
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Post by changashepa on Aug 14, 2009 22:08:36 GMT -5
I am just confirming the information furnished by Donna Kentch. I am the great grand daughter written about who has the pictures. Through research of the national archives, I was able to come across a picture of the original home of William and Mary Carpenter. I found a picture in an antique store of Mr. & Mrs. DK Howe. Upon researching the information on the marriage between DK Howe and Her Good Nature who was Mary Wickem's mother, I confirmed that the only wife known as Mrs. DK Howe was Her Good Nature, the wife in the picture. I do not have a date on when the picture was taken. I also have a picture of William Carpenter from the Blue Cloud Abbey collection which was featured at the EROS Center in approximately 2000. Although no name was mentioned in connection with the picture, Aunt Lorraine (who lived in the same household with William her grandfather until she was about 7 yesrs old this picture was Great Grandfather William). Donna, Aunt Lorraine, and I have done extensive research on the Carpenter family as Donna stated. She has furnished our family with written documents and not just 'hear/say'. We have gathered information from the national archives, south dakota archives, bia heirship records, south dakota history books, baptismal books from St. Johns at Crow Creek, as well as other sources. DawnDay, I would like to know the sources of your information as there are no records that I am aware of to confirm it. Please, could you furnish me the information as it is contrary to what we have found. Please check your timelines and you will find that Lucy and her daughters were not in Minnesota during the hangings and we cannot confirm that King was hung as his Native name was not amongst those listed. Please get the information correct via written records.
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 16, 2009 12:36:26 GMT -5
DONNA, THANK YOU FOR CLEARING UP SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT I HAD BEEN TOLD. I HAD HOPED SOMEONE WOULD SEE THE POSTING AND ADD TO IT THEN, (BETTER LATE THEN NEVER) FROM THAT POSTING ON SEPT. 2008--IT WAS JUST A STORY I THINK TOLD TO ME BY BIG JON OR SOMEONE ELSE IN MY FAMILY, CAN'T RECALL AT THE MOMENT. (age takes its toll with remembering). I DO HAVE MY FAMILY INHERITANCE PAPERS FROM MY FATHER-ADOLPH DAY-- HIS MOTHER: ROSA CARPENTER TO LUCY CARPENTER, BUT PAST THAT IS KIND OF A VAGUE INFORMATION OF FAMILY HISTORY. ESPECIALLY WHERE THE NAME RENDEAU AND CARPENTER ORIGINATED. SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION, IT IS INDEED HELPFUL. DAWNDAY
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 16, 2009 13:10:36 GMT -5
I am just confirming the information furnished by Donna Kentch. I am the great grand daughter written about who has the pictures. Through research of the national archives, I was able to come across a picture of the original home of William and Mary Carpenter. I found a picture in an antique store of Mr. & Mrs. DK Howe. Upon researching the information on the marriage between DK Howe and Her Good Nature who was Mary Wickem's mother, I confirmed that the only wife known as Mrs. DK Howe was Her Good Nature, the wife in the picture. I do not have a date on when the picture was taken. I also have a picture of William Carpenter from the Blue Cloud Abbey collection which was featured at the EROS Center in approximately 2000. Although no name was mentioned in connection with the picture, Aunt Lorraine (who lived in the same household with William her grandfather until she was about 7 yesrs old this picture was Great Grandfather William). Donna, Aunt Lorraine, and I have done extensive research on the Carpenter family as Donna stated. She has furnished our family with written documents and not just 'hear/say'. We have gathered information from the national archives, south dakota archives, bia heirship records, south dakota history books, baptismal books from St. Johns at Crow Creek, as well as other sources. DawnDay, I would like to know the sources of your information as there are no records that I am aware of to confirm it. Please, could you furnish me the information as it is contrary to what we have found. Please check your timelines and you will find that Lucy and her daughters were not in Minnesota during the hangings and we cannot confirm that King was hung as his Native name was not amongst those listed. Please get the information correct via written records. CHANGASHEPA, GOSH!! I HAVEN"T SEEN THIS MUCH INFORMATION ON OUR FAMILY IN QUITE SOME TIME. THAT"S GREAT, I'D JUST GIVEN UP AND SINCE I HAVE NOT HEARD FROM BIG JON IN AGES, JUST FORGOT ABOUT ANY NEW INFORMATION. EVEN HERMIN1 (DESPI), DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING NEW TO HELP ME WITH. SO I DO WELCOME ANYTHING NEW, AND WOULD LOVE ANY PICTURES YOU MIGHT BE WILLING TO SHARE WITH ME. I SEEM TO BE THE LAST OF MY FAMILY LINE THROUGH ROSA CARPENTER. BIG JON SHARED A FEW PICTURES, HE HAD ALONG WITH SOME OF HIS THEORIES OF OUR FAMILIES ANCESTRY. I'VE FORGOTTEN WHOS PICTURES HE SENT I WILL NOW LOOK THEM UP AND SEE WHO THEY ARE OF. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SEEING THEM LET ME KNOW. SO MANY PICTURES WERE LOST, AFTER MY FATHER DIED. I HAVE GOTTEN MUCH OF MY FAMILY HERITAGE THRU QUINTON/BIA AGENCY AND ALSO A RELATIVE. AND DO HAVE INHERITANCE PAPERS THAT I THOUGHT I SHARED WITH DONNA KENTCH SOME TIME AGO, BUT MAYBE NOT. IT'S BEEN SOME TIME SINCE I EVEN DISCUSSED MY FAMILY WITH ANYONE. I USED TO TALK TO LORRAINE FLAWS AND DONNA ON THE PHONE BUT IT HAS BEEN SOME TIME. BEFORE LORRAINE GOT SICK. AND DONNA HAS JUST BECOME AN EMAIL FRIEND, I THINK SHE'S FORGOTTEN WHO I AM ALSO. WOULD WELCOME ANY NEW INFORMATION, AS I SAID I JUST GAVE UP ON ANY FURTHER RESEARCH, BUT I WILL SHARE WHAT I HAVE WITH YOU OR DONNA KENTCH. BUT I'M SURE SHE HAS WHAT I HAVE, IN ANY CASE. EXCEPT MAYBE MY DIRECT INHERITANCE PAPERS. ALL I HAD GOTTEN LATELY WAS JUST HERE/SAY, AND SUPPOSITION ON WHAT, WHERE AND WHO. THANK YOU, DAWNDAY
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Aug 16, 2009 15:20:45 GMT -5
DONNA, THANK YOU FOR CLEARING UP SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT I HAD BEEN TOLD. I HAD HOPED SOMEONE WOULD SEE THE POSTING AND ADD TO IT THEN, (BETTER LATE THEN NEVER) FROM THAT POSTING ON SEPT. 2008--IT WAS JUST A STORY I THINK TOLD TO ME BY BIG JON OR SOMEONE ELSE IN MY FAMILY, CAN'T RECALL AT THE MOMENT. (age takes its toll with remembering). I DO HAVE MY FAMILY INHERITANCE PAPERS FROM MY FATHER-ADOLPH DAY-- HIS MOTHER: ROSA CARPENTER TO LUCY CARPENTER, BUT PAST THAT IS KIND OF A VAGUE INFORMATION OF FAMILY HISTORY. ESPECIALLY WHERE THE NAME RENDEAU AND CARPENTER ORIGINATED. SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION, IT IS INDEED HELPFUL. DAWNDAY Dawnday I just wanted to clear up all the guessing that has been put out about the Carpenters by a few people. It is so important to get the real facts and confirm them. I will gladly share what I have on William Carpenter and his ancestors. I thought I had in the past when we talked in the past to clear up past guess work. Lorraine says she remembers about a piece of land that went to Rosa. I'll get more from her and let you know. She still remembers a lot that went on when she was young from listening to the old stories but since she is not well it's harder to get a time to talk. Donna
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 17, 2009 18:14:00 GMT -5
DawnDay-was so glad to read your post, I had given up researching after a while, and had to admit I could not find anything else, but this gives me more hope. Visible Lightening was my gg grandmother on my moms dads side. I HAD LOOKED ALL OVER AND FINALLY FOUND THEM IN C.C. CENSUS, If you find any thing more please e-mail me. Thanks rosebudwoman2002@yahoo.com MRHARMON, PLEASE EMAIL MY: WELOVETHUMPER1@ATT.NET PERSONAL ADDRESS, AND I WILL EMAIL YOU CENSUS FOR 1886 CROW CREEK / WHERE IT SHOWS VISIBLE LIGHTNING AND FOUR CLOUD LIVING IN SAME HOUSEHOLD, AND DIRECTLY BELOW ON CENSUS SHOWS MY GRANDMA ROSE CARPENTER LIVING WITH HER MOTHER LUCY CARPENTER AND TWO CROW (KUNGINUPA) AS SON, BELOW LIVING IN SAME HOUSEHOLD. AFTER TALKING TO DONNA KENTCH YESTERDAY SHE DOESN'T THINK TWO CROW WAS ROSE CARPENTER'S BROTHER AS I HAD THOUGHT BY RECORDS IN FAMILY RESEARCH.COM HAD SUPPOSEDLY VERIFIED AS SUCH. SO WE ARE TRYING TO SEE WHO HE ACTUALLY WAS. I WILL TRY TO CONTACT QUINTON/BIA OFC. AND SEE IF HE KNOWS. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO POST ONE PAGE OF MANY ON OYATE, BUT I CAN SEND THE PAGES I HAVE ON MY FOLDER THAT I COPIED OF SAID NAMES-- OF 1886,87, AND 88 CROW CREEK CENSUS. UNLESS JIMMY MIGHT BE ABLE TO POST IT FOR ME. MY DAUGHTER WON'T LET ME JOIN THE PHOTOBUCKET TO POST, TO MUCH INFO OUT THERE. DAWNDAY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 17, 2009 18:56:02 GMT -5
DONNA, THANK YOU FOR CLEARING UP SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT I HAD BEEN TOLD. I HAD HOPED SOMEONE WOULD SEE THE POSTING AND ADD TO IT THEN, (BETTER LATE THEN NEVER) FROM THAT POSTING ON SEPT. 2008--IT WAS JUST A STORY I THINK TOLD TO ME BY BIG JON OR SOMEONE ELSE IN MY FAMILY, CAN'T RECALL AT THE MOMENT. (age takes its toll with remembering). I DO HAVE MY FAMILY INHERITANCE PAPERS FROM MY FATHER-ADOLPH DAY-- HIS MOTHER: ROSA CARPENTER TO LUCY CARPENTER, BUT PAST THAT IS KIND OF A VAGUE INFORMATION OF FAMILY HISTORY. ESPECIALLY WHERE THE NAME RENDEAU AND CARPENTER ORIGINATED. SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION, IT IS INDEED HELPFUL. DAWNDAY Dawnday I just wanted to clear up all the guessing that has been put out about the Carpenters by a few people. It is so important to get the real facts and confirm them. I will gladly share what I have on William Carpenter and his ancestors. I thought I had in the past when we talked in the past to clear up past guess work. Lorraine says she remembers about a piece of land that went to Rosa. I'll get more from her and let you know. She still remembers a lot that went on when she was young from listening to the old stories but since she is not well it's harder to get a time to talk. Donna DONNA, The last time I talked to Lorainne I told her I would find the picture of Grandma Rose, as she said she would like to see a picture of her. However in my moves, that particular picture has been lost. But I am still looking for it. If you would relay that message I would appreciate it. I didn't forget, just trying to get my ex-husband to look into the boxes he has for it. All the info that I have I sent you yesterday on the Carpenter's inheritance papers. I don't remember you sending me anything on Charlie Carpenter or William. I think we just talked on the phone regarding Family connections. The land Lorainne is talking about was probably sold, what I inherited I had to sell also, one piece left for my kids. I sent you a personal email regarding Valentine RedDay, would love any further info on any relatives out there. DAWNDAY
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Aug 18, 2009 14:29:30 GMT -5
DawnDay-was so glad to read your post, I had given up researching after a while, and had to admit I could not find anything else, but this gives me more hope. Visible Lightening was my gg grandmother on my moms dads side. I HAD LOOKED ALL OVER AND FINALLY FOUND THEM IN C.C. CENSUS, If you find any thing more please e-mail me. Thanks rosebudwoman2002@yahoo.com MRHARMON, PLEASE EMAIL MY: WELOVETHUMPER1@ATT.NET PERSONAL ADDRESS, AND I WILL EMAIL YOU CENSUS FOR 1886 CROW CREEK / WHERE IT SHOWS VISIBLE LIGHTNING AND FOUR CLOUD LIVING IN SAME HOUSEHOLD, AND DIRECTLY BELOW ON CENSUS SHOWS MY GRANDMA ROSE CARPENTER LIVING WITH HER MOTHER LUCY CARPENTER AND TWO CROW (KUNGINUPA) AS SON, BELOW LIVING IN SAME HOUSEHOLD. AFTER TALKING TO DONNA KENTCH YESTERDAY SHE DOESN'T THINK TWO CROW WAS ROSE CARPENTER'S BROTHER AS I HAD THOUGHT BY RECORDS IN FAMILY RESEARCH.COM HAD SUPPOSEDLY VERIFIED AS SUCH. SO WE ARE TRYING TO SEE WHO HE ACTUALLY WAS. I WILL TRY TO CONTACT QUINTON/BIA OFC. AND SEE IF HE KNOWS. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO POST ONE PAGE OF MANY ON OYATE, BUT I CAN SEND THE PAGES I HAVE ON MY FOLDER THAT I COPIED OF SAID NAMES-- OF 1886,87, AND 88 CROW CREEK CENSUS. UNLESS JIMMY MIGHT BE ABLE TO POST IT FOR ME. MY DAUGHTER WON'T LET ME JOIN THE PHOTOBUCKET TO POST, TO MUCH INFO OUT THERE. DAWNDAY (quote) Dawnday Just one correction. Rosa Carpenter was the grand-daughter of Lucy Carpenter. That census said dau, but it was an error. Rosa's parents were William Carpenter and 1st wife Ella Tunkalutawin. They would be your great-great grandparents. They only had the one child, Rosa. Even though Two Crow is listed as Lucy's son, I'm not sure. Nowhere in any of her records or Susan's testimony was a boy named Two Crow named. Everyone is accounted for. He must have died before the next census (after 1887). Ms Harmon, I'm sure has access to the 1886 census. Since Lucy and Emma were sisters, we have been sharing research for years. Donna --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by BIG JON on Aug 31, 2009 3:21:22 GMT -5
Hey Guys!
Sorry I haven't responded till now. Just know that I still read Oyate board every day. I still look up peoples information and thanx for your last pm (hermin1) to me about Narcisse Drappeau being born in Maine. Yes, I agree with you that there is a chance he was born in Canada. I have always thought so.
I also have seen Dawnday say that I was the one that told her that story about Lucy Carpenter and Emma Wakanhditaninwin (sisters) and the riverboat captain. I didn't. But I did meet one of my relatives today (Ernie Isberg) and he knows about Herman and Victoria. They were his grandparents! He said they brought a great big book to the reunion and he looked at it!
The Book---He also knows who has the book. He says that it has a lot of pictures in it of lakota people (our relatives) and Crow Creek. Evidently, this book is an old style of family album. The kind that holds old photographs, maybe glass plates. That is why it is so thick.
Said that he remembers seeing a Native with long hair and a few adornments wearing a suit and Bowler hat! (I can't make this stuff up!)...haha!...Lol!...Great Stuff!
He was shocked that I could list our family tree without any assistance. (But hey, I've been doing this for so long!) I will speak with him in the next few days. He said that I could probably scan these photographs to share with relatives. Mitakuye Oyasin!
Hey Donna!
----First off I want to say that I did not tell any stories about a riverboat captain regarding this family. I was not a party to these stories.
Donna said: Lucy got her name by marrying Charlie Carpenter. There were two people named Carpenter on some of the Crow Creek Indian Censuses. They are not related to these Carpenters.
----I actually have a different opinion on these people named Carpenter than you have. I do believe that these other Carpenters are related in some way to Lucy, her ex-husband Charlie, or something. I do not have any proof of this but believe that their proximity to Lucy's name on the documents (Census, Baptismal Records) is in some way telling. I will continue to believe this until I see some documentation proving different. These men were natives being listed on the Crow Creek Census.
You said: Charlie Carpenter, a French fur trader, about 1850-51
----Where did you get this from? Where did he trade? For Whom?...Just rhetorical questions.(unless you know the answers)
You said: The name Rendeau appears as part of Charlie Carpenters name in the baptismal book for Crow Creek. He is listed as the father of Lucy Carpenter (Charlie Rendeau Carpenter).
----I also believe this to be in error. I believe (and I am looking at my copy of the baptismal right now) that what you are referring to actually lists William Rendeau Carpenters mother as Lucy and his Father as Charles Rendeau. This can be deceiving. Growing up with a stepfather helps to decipher this bit of code. I think Williams father was Charles (Le)Rendeau as stated on page 80 of the St. Johns Baptismal. But, as you have stated, Charles Rendeau died before William was born so William took his mothers name-Carpenter. (and kept Rendeau-as it was his fathers name). The name Rendeau is also spelled as LaRondeau, which I believe to be the correct version.
----I have been reading about the Hunkpati and Drifting Goose. I have read that the Hunkpati occupied an abandoned Arickara Earthlodge settlement near Redfield S.D. and Drifting Goose worked with Gabriel Renville at Sisseton agency to get benefits because the Hunkpati were left out of the treaty negotiations. Drifting Goose had a tough reputation and:
By an executive order of June 27, 1879, the president set apart, as a reservation for Drifting Goose's band, townships 119, 120 and 121 north of range 63. This reservation lay on both sides of the James river, a little distance south of Aberdeen. Drifting Goose and his band never occupied the reservation thus established, and it was restored to the public domain, by order of the president, July 13, 1880, under the same order that part of the Fort Berthold reservation, between the Little Missouri and Heart rivers, west to the Montana line, was also restored to the public domain.
----This would be in line with Susan High Bear being born at Lake Kampeska in 1862.
----I also have documents that point to Lucy Ohanotawin Carpenter as being a leader of her own "band" and being recognized as such. I still do not know the precise time that Lucy and her 'band' were taken to Crow Creek (but it is very important). They were at Crow Creek before Drifting Goose was awarded a Reservation. It may be that High Bear/Skunk Robe was a chief. (I have no proof, just theory) But, I have seen in Mark Dietrichs book Standing Buffalo, that Skunk Robes Father (Sunkasake) was a scout for General Sibley. (I had posted long ago) and that his band turned themselves in at Ft. Wadsworth (Sisseton). The timeline for this falls right in line with seeing Lucy's family at Crow Creek in 1873.
---- (Drifting Goose's Band actually went to Crow Creek long before he was awarded a reservation.-He also migrated back and forth between Sisseton and Crow Creek collecting annuities at both places-This was his land)
----(Thomas Wagihunka aka Yellowman) Lucy's Brother being baptised in 1873.(on Page 78 St. Johns Baptismal). Also on Page 78 is #7 George SunkaSake listed as being baptised in Lucy's Tipi-Adult but unable to answer for himself on account of sickness. This happened in 1875. The index says that his death record is on page 218. My copy of the Baptismal ends at page 217 and many pages are missing. This is evidence of High Bears father living with Lucy. (I think I have made my point clear-any questions?)
----Further bolstering my argument that SunkeSake is Lucy's Father-in-law is on page 201 of the St. Johns Baptismal. #46 Isaac Hiririnan(aka Isaac High Bear in Lucy's Probate) listed as son of Jacob Makahain (Makahahin= Skunk Robe with the Hair on) Also known as High Bear. Isaac High Bear is son of High Bear. and at #42 Mary Ampetuwastewin (Good Day Win) also daughter of Jacob Makahain. On that same page, It lists #49 William Carpenter son of Mr. Lerondeau and Lucy Ohanotawin. (I believe this to be true)
----Next we have to go to the census where it says Skunk Robe. This is High Bear.
There is still much to be found. I don't think anybody has even looked at the Crow Creek Reservation Official Records at the S.D. Historical Society.
Have I lost you yet? Any Questions?
Big Jon
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 31, 2009 11:49:41 GMT -5
BIG JON AND ALL INTERESTED PARTIES,
I WILL DO A COMPUTER SEARCH FOR THE RIVERBOAT CAPTAIN STORY, I CAN ASSURE YOU, I DID NOT DREAM IT UP. BUT SINCE MY COMPUTER CRASHED A FEW MONTHS AGO, IT MAY TAKE SOME DOING.
BUT I WILL GET BACK WHEN I HAVE RESEARCHED "THE STORY" I POSTED A YEAR AGO. MY DAUGHTER REMEMBERS ME TELLING HER ABOUT IT, BUT SHE CANNOT RECALL EITHER WHO I GOT THE STORY FROM, BUT IT SOUNDED LIKE SUCH A NICE THEORY. AND SINCE I WAS IN TOUCH WITH BIG JON AT THAT TIME-- I GUESS I JUST PRESUMED THE STORY CAME FROM HIM. BUT SINCE APPARENTLY IT DID NOT, I WILL TRY TO FIND OUT WHO DID TELL ME THE STORY. I BELIEVE I DID SAY IT WAS JUST A STORY, IN THE BEGINNING OF THE POST. IN ANY CASE, I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE SAID IN " THIS STORY",---FACT OR FICTION..................
I HAVE DELETED THE WHOLE STORY, AS IT SEEMED TO DISTRESS A LOT OF PEOPLE. AS NO ONE WILL ADMIT TO TELLING ME "THE STORY", I GUESS IT MUST HAVE BEEN A FIGMENT OF MY IMAGINATION. HA
DAWNDAY
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Post by DawnDay on Aug 31, 2009 22:29:28 GMT -5
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DESPI, I AM WISHING YOU A GREAT DAY. HOPE YOU RECEIVED MY BIRTHDAY EMAIL I SENT. WE ARE THE SAME AGE FOR FOUR MONTHS THEN I'M A YEAR OLDER AGAIN. TAKE GOOD CARE OF YOURSELF MY FRIEND, DAWNDAY
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Sept 2, 2009 19:19:23 GMT -5
Renee You got the story about the riverboat captain from me.
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Post by DawnDay on Sept 2, 2009 21:00:52 GMT -5
Renee You got the story about the riverboat captain from me. _____________________________________________________ DONNA, THANK YOU RENE'E (DAWNDAY)
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Donna
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Post by Donna on Sept 3, 2009 12:29:13 GMT -5
Hey Guys! Sorry I haven't responded till now. Just know that I still read Oyate board every day. I still look up peoples information and thanx for your last pm (hermin1) to me about Narcisse Drappeau being born in Maine. Yes, I agree with you that there is a chance he was born in Canada. I have always thought so. I also have seen Dawnday say that I was the one that told her that story about Lucy Carpenter and Emma Wakanhditaninwin (sisters) and the riverboat captain. I didn't. But I did meet one of my relatives today (Ernie Isberg) and he knows about Herman and Victoria. They were his grandparents! He said they brought a great big book to the reunion and he looked at it! The Book---He also knows who has the book. He says that it has a lot of pictures in it of lakota people (our relatives) and Crow Creek. Evidently, this book is an old style of family album. The kind that holds old photographs, maybe glass plates. That is why it is so thick. Said that he remembers seeing a Native with long hair and a few adornments wearing a suit and Bowler hat! (I can't make this stuff up!)...haha!...Lol!...Great Stuff! He was shocked that I could list our family tree without any assistance. (But hey, I've been doing this for so long!) I will speak with him in the next few days. He said that I could probably scan these photographs to share with relatives. Mitakuye Oyasin! Hey Donna! ----First off I want to say that I did not tell any stories about a riverboat captain regarding this family. I was not a party to these stories. Donna said: Lucy got her name by marrying Charlie Carpenter. There were two people named Carpenter on some of the Crow Creek Indian Censuses. They are not related to these Carpenters. ----I actually have a different opinion on these people named Carpenter than you have. I do believe that these other Carpenters are related in some way to Lucy, her ex-husband Charlie, or something. I do not have any proof of this but believe that their proximity to Lucy's name on the documents (Census, Baptismal Records) is in some way telling. I will continue to believe this until I see some documentation proving different. These men were natives being listed on the Crow Creek Census. You said: Charlie Carpenter, a French fur trader, about 1850-51 ----Where did you get this from? Where did he trade? For Whom?...Just rhetorical questions.(unless you know the answers) You said: The name Rendeau appears as part of Charlie Carpenters name in the baptismal book for Crow Creek. He is listed as the father of Lucy Carpenter (Charlie Rendeau Carpenter). ----I also believe this to be in error. I believe (and I am looking at my copy of the baptismal right now) that what you are referring to actually lists William Rendeau Carpenters mother as Lucy and his Father as Charles Rendeau. This can be deceiving. Growing up with a stepfather helps to decipher this bit of code. I think Williams father was Charles (Le)Rendeau as stated on page 80 of the St. Johns Baptismal. But, as you have stated, Charles Rendeau died before William was born so William took his mothers name-Carpenter. (and kept Rendeau-as it was his fathers name). The name Rendeau is also spelled as LaRondeau, which I believe to be the correct version. ----I have been reading about the Hunkpati and Drifting Goose. I have read that the Hunkpati occupied an abandoned Arickara Earthlodge settlement near Redfield S.D. and Drifting Goose worked with Gabriel Renville at Sisseton agency to get benefits because the Hunkpati were left out of the treaty negotiations. Drifting Goose had a tough reputation and: By an executive order of June 27, 1879, the president set apart, as a reservation for Drifting Goose's band, townships 119, 120 and 121 north of range 63. This reservation lay on both sides of the James river, a little distance south of Aberdeen. Drifting Goose and his band never occupied the reservation thus established, and it was restored to the public domain, by order of the president, July 13, 1880, under the same order that part of the Fort Berthold reservation, between the Little Missouri and Heart rivers, west to the Montana line, was also restored to the public domain. ----This would be in line with Susan High Bear being born at Lake Kampeska in 1862. ----I also have documents that point to Lucy Ohanotawin Carpenter as being a leader of her own "band" and being recognized as such. I still do not know the precise time that Lucy and her 'band' were taken to Crow Creek (but it is very important). They were at Crow Creek before Drifting Goose was awarded a Reservation. It may be that High Bear/Skunk Robe was a chief. (I have no proof, just theory) But, I have seen in Mark Dietrichs book Standing Buffalo, that Skunk Robes Father (Sunkasake) was a scout for General Sibley. (I had posted long ago) and that his band turned themselves in at Ft. Wadsworth (Sisseton). The timeline for this falls right in line with seeing Lucy's family at Crow Creek in 1873. ---- (Drifting Goose's Band actually went to Crow Creek long before he was awarded a reservation.-He also migrated back and forth between Sisseton and Crow Creek collecting annuities at both places-This was his land) ----(Thomas Wagihunka aka Yellowman) Lucy's Brother being baptised in 1873.(on Page 78 St. Johns Baptismal). Also on Page 78 is #7 George SunkaSake listed as being baptised in Lucy's Tipi-Adult but unable to answer for himself on account of sickness. This happened in 1875. The index says that his death record is on page 218. My copy of the Baptismal ends at page 217 and many pages are missing. This is evidence of High Bears father living with Lucy. (I think I have made my point clear-any questions?) ----Further bolstering my argument that SunkeSake is Lucy's Father-in-law is on page 201 of the St. Johns Baptismal. #46 Isaac Hiririnan(aka Isaac High Bear in Lucy's Probate) listed as son of Jacob Makahain (Makahahin= Skunk Robe with the Hair on) Also known as High Bear. Isaac High Bear is son of High Bear. and at #42 Mary Ampetuwastewin (Good Day Win) also daughter of Jacob Makahain. On that same page, It lists #49 William Carpenter son of Mr. Lerondeau and Lucy Ohanotawin. (I believe this to be true) ----Next we have to go to the census where it says Skunk Robe. This is High Bear. There is still much to be found. I don't think anybody has even looked at the Crow Creek Reservation Official Records at the S.D. Historical Society. Have I lost you yet? Any Questions? Big Jon
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Donna
Full Member
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Post by Donna on Sept 3, 2009 12:31:31 GMT -5
Jon I’ve read your post concerning the Carpenter family. Actually it was a reply to what I had written to Dawn Day. She knows now that she got the story of the Riverboat Captain from me and that it was about Mary Wickem’s father and had nothing to do with Lucy Carpenter or Emma. It was just a little confusion.
The book that was taken to the Isburg reunion did have pictures and clippings in it but it belonged to Sandra Isburg, the granddaughter of Herman and Victoria (Carpenter) Isburg. The pictures of people in Indian dress were of Mary Wickem’s mother and stepfather D.K. Howe. They had nothing to do with Lucy Carpenter. I was at the reunion- I go every year because they ask me to keep them updated on the Carpenter family research. Emma’s family is represented at the reunion as are the families of Victoria and Amelia Carpenter (daughters of William and Mary Carpenter) I have researched for all of them.
Before I go any farther I’ll remind you that you are NOT related to William Carpenter nor any of his children with his wife Mary Wickem. Your interest is with Lucy Carpenter and her marriage to High Bear (the second of her three husbands) and their only living child, Susan, who married Charlie McBride. High Bear was married for many years to Lucy’s older sister, Elizabeth. They had quite a few children including Paul High Bear and Isaac High Bear.
DawnDay IS related to William Carpenter thru his first wife Ella TUNKALUTAWIN. I have and will continue to pass on information on her family when I find it, along with the written sources of where I got it.
-Lucy was married to Charlie Carpenter. It is noted so in the BIA documents I have. -Rondeau was used in the baptism book, but only there and nowhere else.(We are still attempting to trace this name and Carpenter back into Canada but until some document appears to change the facts we have we will go with what we know). -Lucy was listed in historical documents (of which I have) as a sub-chief of mixed bloods, here at Crow Creek. I spent many years with Lorraine at the Crow Creek BIA getting records about anyone who was in the family (both sides) and anyone who had any connection to or of concern to them. The reality officer was so very helpful.
You may be the king of theories and that is fine but I have documents concerning all those I spoke about in this and past posts. Sandy, Lorraine and I do the “what if” or “could be this way” almost every time we talk about their ancestors THAT WE DON’T HAVE PROOF ABOUT” It sometimes gives you a new way or place to research and sometimes you do find something.
I know all about Drifting Goose Band and their migration to and from Sisseton, I have researched High Bear and his children and Lucy’s brother Yellowman 2.
My research is my job and I spend 6-8 hours a day on it and have used the local library, State Archives (we have spent a lot of time in Pierre), and have read any book I can check out or buy concerning the Sioux in South Dakota and Minnesota. We’ve interview the old people who knew the family or were related to it and obtained lots of good information to check out from them. I don’t know Ernie but I do know that Lorraine was very close to her cousin Wendell and wife Kay until the day he died. They all knew the family information that had been passed down thru the generations. Some was accurate and some was a little distorted because they were children while they listened to their parents talk.
I deeply resent the tone of your replies which imply that I don’t know what I am talking about. I do. I may not be of Indian blood but I have learned a lot and care deeply about what I do. Keep your theories going about Lucy and High Bear and the rest. That’s fine. I will use my records as fact until I learn something different. Only, please don’t venture into William Carpenter and his children with anything other than facts. It doesn’t concern you. Thank you. Donna (also Lorraine and Sandy)
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Post by hermin1 on Sept 3, 2009 22:32:32 GMT -5
Amen to that Donna. See what you can find at the Canadian GenWeb. I would try the Quebec and Ontario GenWebs also. Type Metis Genealogy into google and see whatyou come up with.
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Post by DawnDay on Sept 14, 2009 15:35:12 GMT -5
Hey Guys! Sorry I haven't responded till now. The Book---He also knows who has the book. He says that it has a lot of pictures in it of lakota people (our relatives) and Crow Creek. Evidently, this book is an old style of family album. The kind that holds old photographs, maybe glass plates. That is why it is so thick. Hey Donna! Donna said: Lucy got her name by marrying Charlie Carpenter. There were two people named Carpenter on some of the Crow Creek Indian Censuses. They are not related to these Carpenters. ----I actually have a different opinion on these people named Carpenter than you have. I do believe that these other Carpenters are related in some way to Lucy, her ex-husband Charlie, or something. I do not have any proof of this but believe that their proximity to Lucy's name on the documents (Census, Baptismal Records) is in some way telling. I will continue to believe this until I see some documentation proving different. These men were natives being listed on the Crow Creek Census. You said: Charlie Carpenter, a French fur trader, about 1850-51 ----Where did you get this from? Where did he trade? For Whom?...Just rhetorical questions.(unless you know the answers) You said: The name Rendeau appears as part of Charlie Carpenters name in the baptismal book for Crow Creek. He is listed as the father of Lucy Carpenter (Charlie Rendeau Carpenter). ----I also believe this to be in error. I believe (and I am looking at my copy of the baptismal right now) that what you are referring to actually lists William Rendeau Carpenters mother as Lucy and his Father as Charles Rendeau. This can be deceiving. Growing up with a stepfather helps to decipher this bit of code. I think Williams father was Charles (Le)Rendeau as stated on page 80 of the St. Johns Baptismal. But, as you have stated, Charles Rendeau died before William was born so William took his mothers name-Carpenter. (and kept Rendeau-as it was his fathers name). The name Rendeau is also spelled as LaRondeau, which I believe to be the correct version. ----I have been reading about the Hunkpati and Drifting Goose. I have read that the Hunkpati occupied an abandoned Arickara Earthlodge settlement near Redfield S.D. and Drifting Goose worked with Gabriel Renville at Sisseton agency to get benefits because the Hunkpati were left out of the treaty negotiations. Drifting Goose had a tough reputation and: By an executive order of June 27, 1879, the president set apart, as a reservation for Drifting Goose's band, townships 119, 120 and 121 north of range 63. This reservation lay on both sides of the James river, a little distance south of Aberdeen. Drifting Goose and his band never occupied the reservation thus established, and it was restored to the public domain, by order of the president, July 13, 1880, under the same order that part of the Fort Berthold reservation, between the Little Missouri and Heart rivers, west to the Montana line, was also restored to the public domain. ----This would be in line with Susan High Bear being born at Lake Kampeska in 1862. ----I also have documents that point to Lucy Ohanotawin Carpenter as being a leader of her own "band" and being recognized as such. I still do not know the precise time that Lucy and her 'band' were taken to Crow Creek (but it is very important). They were at Crow Creek before Drifting Goose was awarded a Reservation. It may be that High Bear/Skunk Robe was a chief. (I have no proof, just theory) But, I have seen in Mark Dietrichs book Standing Buffalo, that Skunk Robes Father (Sunkasake) was a scout for General Sibley. (I had posted long ago) and that his band turned themselves in at Ft. Wadsworth (Sisseton). The timeline for this falls right in line with seeing Lucy's family at Crow Creek in 1873. ---- (Drifting Goose's Band actually went to Crow Creek long before he was awarded a reservation.-He also migrated back and forth between Sisseton and Crow Creek collecting annuities at both places-This was his land) [[[[[[[ ----(Thomas Wagihunka aka Yellowman) Lucy's Brother being baptised in 1873.(on Page 78 St. Johns Baptismal]]]]]] Also on Page 78 is #7 George SunkaSake listed as being baptised in Lucy's Tipi-Adult but unable to answer for himself on account of sickness. This happened in 1875. The index says that his death record is on page 218. My copy of the Baptismal ends at page 217 and many pages are missing. This is evidence of High Bears father living with Lucy. (I think I have made my point clear-any questions?) Big Jon ___________________________________________________ SISCO, SEE ABOVE BIG JON'S EXPLANATION OF WHO YELLOWMAN WAS, ALSO SEE "CLOUD THAT STOPS FOUR TIMES"-- HISTORY UNDER OYATE'S-- RELATIVES SECTION FOR MORE INFORMATION REGARDING YELLOWMAN UNDER DONNA'S POST. HOPE THIS HELPS. DAWNDAY
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