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Post by nncy58 on May 8, 2007 13:40:22 GMT -5
[ftp][/ftp] www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadshow/series/highlights/2007/mobile/fts_hou Search tips Rare Portraits Survive Museum Blaze (In a Way) by Ben Phelan How a 19th-century bureaucrat's bungling plan to get rich managed to save hundreds of Indian portraits whose originals were lost to fire. Portrait of a Pawnee brave named Petalesharoo, from one of Thomas' three volumes of lithographs. At the July 2006 Roadshow in Mobile, Alabama, Catherine Williamson of Bonhams & Butterfields appraised a well-preserved complete set of lithographs, entitled McKenney and Hall's History of the Tribes of North America, belonging to a guest named Thomas. Catherine placed the value of the set of three books at between $70,000 and $90,000. Undoubtedly, the large volumes filled with strikingly vivid portraits of 19th-century American Indians are authentic treasures, but why so valuable? One Man's Plan for Portraits In 1821, Thomas McKenney, the U.S. superintendent of Indian Trade, began commissioning portraits of American Indian leaders who traveled to Washington, D.C., to negotiate treaties with the federal government. McKenney would later express as his reason a desire to preserve "in the archives of the Government whatever of the aboriginal man can be rescued from the destruction which awaits his race." His opinion that American Indians ought to be "looked upon as human beings, having bodies and souls like ours" was, sadly, an enlightened view that few shared. But his plan went forward, and for a few years, the ever-growing collection of portraits hung in McKenney's office — until a more entrepreneurial idea occurred to him: that of making money "beyond calculation" by commissioning lithographs of the paintings and selling them to the public in bound volumes, each portrait to be accompanied by a biographical sketch of the subject. It was the resulting series of three volumes that became known as McKenney and Hall's History of the Tribes of North America and offered for sale by subscription. Today it is widely acknowledged that the volumes contain some of the finest American lithography of the 19th century. Appraiser Catherine Williamson said the excellent condition of Thomas' 19th-century volumes is truly remarkable. A History of Setbacks The 15-year history of the books' publication is far too convoluted to give a full account of here; but in light of all the setbacks McKenney and his partners were dealt, it is nearly miraculous that any books were ever published at all. The story involves, among other things, McKenney's successful solicitation of former President John Quincy Adams as editor; many different publishers, some of whom went bankrupt, others cutting their losses and bailing out in the face of looming financial catastrophe; a deaf-mute genius lithographer whose company went bust; and endless crises of confidence and capital. Indeed, McKenney's own commitment to the project often wavered and would eventually expire. Yet it is not that McKenney was feckless or inconstant; he just had no idea of how much money and work would have to be expended to realize his vision. At the same time, he is not without blame for some of the difficulties the project encountered. To remedy a particularly bad financial situation, and to rally his morale, McKenney secured as one of his string of financiers Judge James Hall of Cincinnati, and promised him access to a "very voluminous" amount of source material from which to write biographies of the paintings' Indian subjects. But when Hall moved to Philadelphia to set to work, he found no such material, and was also unable to coax McKenney into helping him. Hall spent the next eight years trying to track down many of the subjects, about whom all McKenney had provided was a name. Moreover, it became clear several times that the price of the subscription — $120 for the whole set — was nowhere near enough to defray the costs incurred during the exacting production process. And the Economic Panic of 1837 nearly dealt the project a deathblow, depriving many of its subscribers of the means to pay for their subscriptions. It was then that McKenney finally withdrew from the project completely. Hall and a new publisher brought the series to completion, with the final installment appearing in January of 1844, long after McKenney was inspired to make the remarkable series of portraits available to the public (and hoping to become a rich man in the bargain). In the end, there were 1,250 subscribers. Portrait of Ki-On-Twog-Ky, or Corn Plant, a Seneca chief. Fire at the Smithsonian Enhancing the value of these rare books is yet another of the hardships that seemed to curse the project from its offing. In 1858, the original oil paintings that were subsequently lithographed for the bound set were moved into the "Castle" at the Smithsonian, the institution's first building and a repository for a great deal of artwork. But in the winter of 1865, workers who were relocating the Indian portraits brought in a wood-burning stove to keep themselves warm while they worked, and mistakenly vented the stovepipe into a ventilation shaft that they took for a flue. It took two weeks for the fire to ignite, but after it did, the roof of the Castle collapsed and the second floor was engulfed, along with 295 of the original Indian portraits. Only five paintings were rescued from the blaze. It remains the most catastrophic fire in the Smithsonian's history. Although one of the painters had made a few copies of his favorite portraits for himself, the great majority of the pictures would be irretrievably lost had McKenney, Hall, and their colleagues not finally persevered in their somewhat hapless lithography project. But as is often the case when talking of value, it is the physical condition of Thomas' set of books that seems the most important consideration — more so even than the fraught history the volumes barely survived. "He had a lot of good stuff," Catherine Williamson said, "but I was really astonished at what great shape those books were in. The Deep South is generally not the best place for antiques. It's hot and humid, and books can get a lot of sun on them. So I don't know what he was doing to take care of those books, but he was doing the right thing." See our article "Lithography 101" for a more detailed look at the process. Ben Phelan is a fact-checker for GQ magazine and a freelance writer in New York City. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mobile, Alabama (2007). Read the Highlights. posted on 3.28.2007 r2_2.html
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Post by nncy58 on May 8, 2007 13:44:31 GMT -5
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadshow/series/highlights/2006/tampa/fts_hour2_2.html Search tips Lakota Dictionary by Dennis Gaffney This dictionary, bound with staples, was written in December 1866. At the Tampa, Florida, ANTIQUES ROADSHOW, appraiser Thomas Lecky was handed a book in near-perfect condition called Lahcotah: Dictionary of the Sioux Language. The book, bound with staples, was written in December 1866 by army officers and Indian guides at Fort Laramie, an important stop on the Oregon Trail. "This is the first book printed in Wyoming," Thomas, a rare manuscript specialist at Christie's in New York, told the owner, who is the great-great-nephew of William Sylvanus Starring, one of the book's authors. But could Thomas make such a definitive statement? "In our field, we're lucky," Thomas says, "because people often put together bibliographies of rare books." These catalogs document when, where, and how many rare books in a place or genre were printed. All the sources that Thomas turned to confirmed what he suspected: the book brought to him in Tampa was rare indeed. One of the dictionary's authors, William Sylvanus Starring, was also the great-great-uncle of its former owner. Thomas began with the bibliography Wyoming Territorial Imprints by Christine Stopka, published in 1990, which confirmed that the earliest book printed in the Dakota territories which included what is today Wyoming — was the Lakota dictionary. The book was so rare that J.C. Pilling, the author of the Proof-Sheets of a Bibliography of the Languages of the North American Indians, an 1885 bibliography that Thomas checked, couldn't locate a copy. Pilling, though, was later given the book and pasted a note in it that reads, "Present from Gen. Starring . . . Big find. 50 copies only Starring thinks." Thomas was curious about how many copies still existed, so he got online and searched the Union catalog, which lists library holdings owned by universities or historical societies. The catalog showed only nine copies. And the book American Book Prices Current revealed that only one copy of the dictionary has been auctioned in the last 30 years. The dictionary was printed at the height of the Indian wars on the plains. "This was a how-to guide, printed on an army press, a way to communicate with Sioux on the plains," Thomas says. "After its usefulness, it was probably thrown away." What makes this item so special, Thomas believes, is not just its significance as the first book printed on the frontier or its excellent condition, but rather its historical context. The dictionary was written at Fort Laramie, a fur trading post that evolved into a military fort that protected white settlers heading to the West Coast after the California gold rush in the late 1840s. These settlers, who devastated the buffalo herds, were unwelcome by the Plains Indians. The dictionary was printed at the height of the Indian wars on the plains, and Starring was working on it during the brutal winter of 1865-1866, when many Plains Indians perished, in part because white settlers had denied them blankets, food, and other rations. The author made numerous hand-written notes. Starring's dictionary was useful to the army officers and others, and the author's numerous hand-written notes show his desire — perhaps fueled by pressure from authorities — to make his dictionary as accurate as possible. The book brought to the ROADSHOW includes 20 hand-written words that Starring added to the more than 1,000 printed dictionary entries, including "boy," "buffalo robe," "raisin," "snake," "butter," "to play a game at cards," "coffee," "to come," "man" (Indian), and "man" (white). Starring also scribbled in conjugations of the word "to want." Incidentally, the owner of the Lakota dictionary had also brought with him two metal pendants that Thomas referred to on-air as "gorgets" — a term that can apply to various types of ornaments worn around the neck, in some cases deriving from leather or metal pieces whose original purpose was to protect the throat during battle. In this case, Thomas explains, the pendants are actually of a certain "cloud-shaped" kind known as "pectorals" (the two metal objects pictured in the collection), which were especially preferred by many of the Plains Indians. "These happened to be owned by two extremely important Sioux chiefs," Thomas explained to the pendants' owner. "One was owned by Red Cloud, and the other by Spotted Tail." This collection included Native American "gorgets" or pectorals like these bird-shaped pendants. Thomas speculates the pectorals were given to Starring during the spring and fall of 1866, when war chiefs Red Cloud, Spotted Tail, Standing Elk, Dull Knife, and others went to Fort Laramie to negotiate a treaty with government officials. Because of his knowledge of the Lakota language, Starring might have been asked to be present at the negotiations as a translator, and might have received the two pectorals as a reward for his efforts. Thomas estimated that the pectorals were worth $8,000 to $12,000 each, and he put the dictionary's value between $60,000 to $80,000, for a total value of $76,000 to $104,000. How close did the Christie's auction of the book and the pectorals on December 15, 2005, come to that estimate? They sold for $88,500, what Thomas referred to as "a very happy end to the story." This account was largely based on the description of the Lakota objects written by Thomas Lecky for the December 15th books and manuscript auction at Christie's. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Tampa, Florida (2006). Read the Highlights. posted on 1.13.2006 [ftp][/ftp]
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Post by BIG JON on May 8, 2007 15:30:13 GMT -5
THIS DICTIONARY STORY IS SO FANTASTIC!...GREAT POST!
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Post by nncy58 on May 8, 2007 16:59:34 GMT -5
thanks Big Jon I started these stories because I remember watching the first one about the Bible on their show and thought they had mentioned Renville.
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Post by jazzdog on May 10, 2007 1:54:00 GMT -5
I applaud all that has been found and divulged upon this gracious site. People sharing information is always better and much more conducive to our human condition, than the prospect of hiding important historical documents or findings, which occurs from time to time, as we have all learned. I appreciate the efforts of Jimmy and Tamara and Jackie and Big Jon and Denney and Jamie......I don't mean to leave any of the longtime contributors out..... But Dark Wolfe, I especially thank you for your immediate openness and abilities to tell the truth and to share the intrincacies of our collective histories of which you have searched and found. It is a pleasure to have you amongst the true human beings that dwell upon this site. It never ceases to amaze me that those of all of us amongst this sharing group, continue to come up with "new" undiscovered or undisclosed aspects and tidbits that help us all in our grand quest to seek the answer of who each one of us humble individuals are, in the sense of where we actually come from. Every little bit that is revealed, every little bit that is shared, I believe, carries us all toward that shining goal that we all mentally and physically, want to achieve. All of the people on this site are participants for one reason or another......but I have always believed that most if not all of us, want to know the real truth. We want to know the real truth that we have not been told or that of which we have been told, but for which we have been skeptical, or basically not accepting of the fact that a different, and a more true, truth, has not been told, or has not yet been discovered, or trully exposed. Those that have graciously listened to, or kindly read, many of my former posts on this site, may think that my view of sharing and discovery of the truth, is a bland mantra of my individual belief of what can be........however, I, myself, will not settle for anything less than the real and rightuous truth, good, bad or ugly. I do think that there are many that believe the same, and many have voiced that same vision as I do. The terrible wrongs and the atrocities are hard to look at with a reasoned eye or with a kind heart.... for much of the truth that we all ultimately discover in our endeavors to learn of who our anscestors truly are and were, and by extension, who we are individually, is not always fitting within the pictures we all may have in our own minds. The courage to seek the truth despite the unknown factor that we may never find it, or that what we find, may be less than what we expected, is the risk we all take to get to that true goal. If we all looked in the mirror, at ourselves, at our own faces, at this particular time in history, we are all going to see someone who we like, dislike, or admire......we may see a person in the light of life now, that sought the unknown and the unexpected.....we may see someone who is disappointed in ourselves as to who we are now as we peer into the mirror. We, however, no matter how long we stare into our eyes in the mirror today, may see a human being that is in fact doing all that is possible to learn.....to learn more, no matter good or bad, kind or ugly, bad or indifferent, blank or full....... the truth is, that we all see ourselves in the mirror today, as someone who may or can have our own individual impact upon the history that is presently being written about us by those that will follow us......if each of us can look into our eyes in the mirror and be satisfied that we, you and I, have done, or will do, all that we can to possibly right wrongs, now and then, or to be proud of ourselves to speak up for ourselves or our loved ones or the vulnerable or those that cannot speak for themselves because they have no present earthly voices to speak themselves, we can realize at least some of the satisfaction within ourselves that we did what we could, while we could, and when we could. The ancestors, for the most part, did not have the mirror to look themselves in their own eyes...they had to look into the eyes of those that they loved and trusted...or did not trust...to determine what was the right thing to do. We have that ability as living breathing human beings to look into each other eyes everyday if possible, to share the moments of love....of agreement....of understanding...of apprehension....of fear...or happiness....of sadness...of compliance....of honesty...of respect....of awareness....and, of willingness to silently acknowledge that we are all in this thing called life, together. Our eyes are a road to our souls and serve us not only in the beautiful realization of life on this earth, but the appreciation of how we can enjoy the lives of others around us......loved ones and strangers alike. I guess what I wanted to say, is that I see an appreciation of life within the sharing of the anscestral information for all of the families. I think, and believe, that if we proceed in this fashion and not lose sight of what it means in the big picture, we can help each other in our discovery, and then, we can all look into the mirror and smile, knowing that what we see is unified in the sense that this is what is human, and this is what is meant to be for all of us at this particular time in our lives. At least this is what I hope.
Thank you again, my friends.
Jazzdog
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Post by Vicky on May 10, 2007 22:28:56 GMT -5
AMEN, Jazzdog. Beautifully written, as always.
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DarkWolfe
Full Member
Mitakuye Oyasin
Posts: 134
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Post by DarkWolfe on May 11, 2007 0:01:38 GMT -5
But Dark Wolfe, I especially thank you for your immediate openness and abilities to tell the truth and to share the intrincacies of our collective histories of which you have searched and found. It is a pleasure to have you amongst the true human beings that dwell upon this site. Words cannot express how I feel, when I read a post such as this one. I am flattered, humbled, happy, and somewhat surprised. For may years I helped whites, and me being one myself (except for the story I told about the Indian man in the park , with no response most of the time. They take the information and run with it, sometimes claiming it as their own find. Behind this screen I smile at them, and go on doing my work. But one day I find Oyate, and I am now looking with eyes wide open and smiling a true smile. So it is I, who thanks all of you for allowing me to share your lives. I have been absent a few days now, do not think I have abandoned this site. But I am a maker of web sites, and am working on one I hope you will all join, when the time has come. I have collected many things and hopefully they will help each of you find your way. Last night I uncovered over 600 Sioux photos, and am trying to catalog them and put in order. My necklace calls to me.... As I remain your cousin, DarkWolfe
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Post by willow on Feb 19, 2014 2:58:20 GMT -5
Greetings from a random internet drop in. I am a Canadian descendant of Joseph Renville the trader on my mothers side and am trying to fill some gaps in the family tree, which has sadly neglected our native connections. I have basically traced my line through the Renville family from myself to about the 1500's since I've been neglecting many of the side branches etc generally including only my direct ancestors and their children rather than cousins etc. It essentially runs myself, my mother then her mother Eva Renville, daughter of Napoleon 'Roy' Renville, son of John Joachim Renville Son of Francois Renville son of Joseph the trader.
I know that Joseph the trader was married to Tonkanne, while his father was married to Miniyuhe. I do not however know much about Sioux kinship systems, marriage practices or culture specifically (arrangement of villages, economic system, relations to other tribes etc.) as where I live native populations are vastly different culturally. I am curious what the relations of my native ancestry are. I know that they are linked to the Little Crow line but I know very little about the major lineages of the Sioux or the importance of various family lines in significant historic events.
I have read significant information about Joseph Renville sr. about his role in the fur trade and importance as a cultural broker for missionaries, and Actually have a number of documents which mention him in various context but it does not really explain his relations to the tribe beyond that his mother and wife were sioux.
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 19, 2014 9:01:30 GMT -5
I would recommend you read 'little Crow, Spokesman for the Sioux". it is a biography of Little Crow, and also includes his family Tree. "Through Dakota Eyes" is another reference about the Uprising of 1862. 'the Dakota or Sioux Indians As they were in Minnesota in 1834".is a very good reference and talks about the cultural and traditions of the Sioux.
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Post by willow on Feb 19, 2014 12:55:35 GMT -5
Thanks, I am continuing my research but I am finding the repeated use and mixing of names for the Little Crow lineage to be confusing. I am trying to find out how Mary 'Tonkanne' Renville, daughter of one of the Little Crow's, and married to Joseph Renville, is related to Miniyuhe who married Joseph Rainville I think is also connected to the same lineage. Were they sisters, or cousins for example, or was Tonkanne Miniyuhe's aunt or am I completely mistaken that there would be a connection. My confusion is stemming from the fact that Petit Corbeau being a french translation of Little Crow is applied in various sources to a number of individuals. The lineage as I understand it is thus: >Petit Corbeau (little crow)>Cetanwankunmani(Little Crow)>Wakinyantanka(Little Crow)>Taoyate Duta(Little Crow)> There seems to be some disagreement on various sources and texts as to if for example Taoyate Duta was Little Crow the IV or V while the original Petit Corbeau was perhaps someone named Red Wing or Ail Rouge?. Most sources I have found also don't provide much information on offspring for any of the mentioned figures other than the lineage listed above, with a few occasionally conflicting exceptions.
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Post by willow on Feb 19, 2014 13:03:23 GMT -5
Your own posts Hermin give me cause to think they were sisters, both daughters of Centanwankunmani, in which case Joseph Renville married his aunt? Then however Little Crow Spokesman for the Sioux suggests that while Miniyuhe was part of little crow's family, Tonkanne was a neice of big thunder and sister to 'left hand'. It states that Tonkanne and 'left hand' were the cross cousins of Taoyateduta. Tonkanne it is also suggested is a grand daughter of Centanwankunmani through one of his daughters. Any Ideas?
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 20, 2014 12:23:44 GMT -5
willow, I don't know what a cross cousin is.i apologize if I confused you. I checked my notes on chatka again. here is what I have: Left Hand or Chatka was was the Mdewakanton son of a sister of the first Little Crow, and brother-in-law to Mr. Renville of Lac Qui Parle. Chatka was born @1782, somewhere near St. Paul, and died in 1847(Ref. Lac Qui Parle,Its Missionaries, Traders, and Indians. Donald Dean Baker.1969. SDSU Publishers). Chatka's sister Mary,was the niece of big thunder. She was also the wife of Joseph Rainville
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 20, 2014 12:25:52 GMT -5
the first Little Crow would be Chief Big Thunder.
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Post by willow on Feb 21, 2014 1:21:21 GMT -5
Thanks A cross cousin is an anthropological term for a specific form of kinship ties. One can have parallel or cross cousins and depending on the society or culture, different types of cousin receive different treatment within kinship systems, usually in relation to marriage options. Essentially a cross cousin is the child of ones mothers brothers, or ones fathers sisters. A parallel cousin is ones fathers brothers child or ones mothers sisters. So Mary being Big thunders sisters child would make her Taoyateduta's cross cousin, which is what one source said. Any idea who her mother was?
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Post by willow on Feb 21, 2014 16:19:52 GMT -5
Sorry if it feels like I'm spamming >.< So according to a few sources Old Eve and Miniyuhe were sisters and both daughters of Cetanwakunmani. If this is the case than Miniyuhe is Tokanne's aunt as well as Taoyateduta's. Did Cetanwakunmani have any other daughters?
"The historical perspective" attached to the excerpts from "A thrilling narrative of native captivity" suggests that Renville familly history according to Joseph Renville sr's cousin Wambdiokiya both he and Miniyuhe descend from a shared white female grandmother. That would suggest that either Cetanwakunmani's mother or one of his wives mothers was white?
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 21, 2014 17:28:25 GMT -5
willow don't be ridiculous. you aren't spamming, but searching for your ancestors.
According to the youngest Eastman son, his Grandfather Chief Cloudman was a mixed blood,son of a French Nobleman and a Mdewakanton Sioux mother(Old Eve), and Wambdiokiya/ EagleHelp was a brother of Cloudman, as was Paul Mazakutamani(sp), and Fearful face(deceased).their other brother was killed years ago in a drunken brawl. they had at least a sister.I don't know who she was. I have not seen anything that suggested otherwise.(Lac Qui Parle,its Missionaries,Traders, and Indians. 1969. Donald Dean Baker. SDSU Publishers). In Little Crow,spokesman for the Sioux, the author wrote that Old Eve had wed Miniyuhe's brother-in-law(a Renville).this would account for the French Nobleman that was cloudman's father,as well as of his siblings. I am still waiting for your references re. relation of Cloudman to Little Crow. and there is still the question of how many Sioux named cloudman there were. the grandson of one of the Ponds wrote a very good reference also about the life history of his father and Uncle, the pond brothers, who knew Cloudman and his family well. I believe that the book has been posted in its entirety on our website,but don't remember what section it is in. Mike Denney also posted the book on his website, http;//mdenney.proboads.com
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Post by willow on Feb 22, 2014 0:34:28 GMT -5
Okay sooo....
The Book, "A thrilling narrative of Native Captivity: Dispatches from the Dakota War" by Mary Butler Renville, John Baptiste Renvilles wife was republished with a forward and several essays. One by Carrie Reber Zeman, entitled “Historical Perspectives on a Thrilling Narrative of Indian Captivity” writes: Miniyuhe, a young Mdewankanton woman from the Kaposia village at Mille Lacs.9 Miniyuhe was John’s paternal grandmother.10 According to Renville family history her grandmother was a white woman, making Miniyuhe an early Waṡic̣uŋ c̣iŋc̣a, or Dakota mixed-blood. The story came down through Wambdiokiya, John’s father’s cousin, a warrior in the Soldiers’ Lodge at Lac qui Parle. Wambdiokiya, too, was descended from the mysterious white woman. He told the story to Joseph Nicollet, a French geographer mapping the Mississippi River watershed who visited Lac qui Parle in 1838 and 1839. In traditional Dakota fashion Wambdiokiya sought to establish whether there was a kin relationship between himself and the person to whom he was speaking. “I will tell you in what manner we are related,” Wambdiokiya said to French immigrant Nicollet, and from what nation we are sprung I will relate to you. A white woman married a Sioux, and they had a son, who grew up to manhood, and took a wife. He became the father of a son and in addition his wife gave birth to more children. After that the woman died, and left two children, the one a female, the mother of Rainville; the other, a male who is our father. This is a correct account of our parentage, which shows us to have derived our origin partly from Whites, partly from the Sioux.11
On Page 41 of Little Crow: Spokesman for the Sioux it says that Joseph Renville's mother Miniyuhe was a member of Little Crow's family
"Searching for the forgotten war of 1812" by Patrick Richard Carstens, Timothy L. Sanford. Pg 485. "Miniyuhe was a Dakota , possibly a daughter of Mewakanton Dakota chief Big Thunder.
I've seen a few other references which seem to narrow it to Cetanwakunmani
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 24, 2014 14:12:39 GMT -5
thanks much for the references.One thing is for sure. miniyuhe was a member of the Little Crow dynasty. I did not know about the white woman, that Eagle Help referred to. according to some researchers,I know that one of the chiefs Redwing had a white wife and they had chief wakute and his sister.when the chief died in 1829, some of the men in the tribe refused to acknowledge wakute as chief,because he was a mixed blood.
big thunder's wives were: Gray chin woman, woman planting in water, and an unknown spouse.could the last one be the white woman?
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Post by willow on Feb 26, 2014 2:50:19 GMT -5
I think that Miniyuhe was Big Thunders sister. That would make the aforementioned white woman centanwakunmani's mother. I think I've seen reference to centanwakunmani's father was 'red wing'?
which 'little crow' had a wife named otter woman or Behtake?
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Post by hermin1 on Feb 26, 2014 13:22:02 GMT -5
I too have been told that she was big thunder's sister.I am sorry, I do not know who Behtake's spouse was. I have also been told that one of the Little Crows and I think(but aren't sure) and one of the chiefs Redwings according to Jonathon carver's claim, signed a document giving him a lot of land in Minnesota. one of the two was called the turtle, but I don't remember what the other was called.Major Taliaferro wrote about it in his autobiography. the book "Lac Qui Parle,....." I mentioned earlier, talked about the Renvilles.
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