probate question

[leb49]

I apologize in advance if this was already discussed, but I am wondering, how do i go about getting copies of old probate papers?

[hermin1]

dear leb: No apologies necessary. You should first try contacting the NARA in Wash. DC the contact person is [e-mail]. if they don't have it, then you contact the NARA in Kansas City,MO. the contact there is [e-mail]
You need to give them the deceased's Indian and /or english Name, when they died, and their tribal affiliation.
the cost ofr copies is $15 for one to 15 pages cpied and 75 cents per/each additional page copied.
good luck.

[leb49]

both ladies weren't able to help me, but thank you for pointing me toward them. oh! and Mary Frances' email ... its [e-mail] ... not Francis with an 'I' ... for future reference!

________
thanks much for the correction.
I often forget whether that should be an e or an i.

[kola]

The BIA agency where your relatives' land is located has copies of their members and non-enrolled members' probates. Any member or non-member with interest held in trust will have to go throught probate before transferrring title to anyone else. The first probate was heard in1910, so anything before is just a record of their allotments. Allotments records are kept at the Regional Title Plants were the Reservation lands are located. A couple of things to know when you want to hunt for information, where your relatives were enrolled at and if they had land still held in trust.

[Vicky]

I agree, kola. The BIA should always be the first place to inquire. However, many of the BIA's which we deal with have basically shut down and are not helping anyone any more. Some have not answered their mail for years. When that is the case, we must then try NARA which doesn't always have what we need. So it is frustrating. I remember 20 years ago when all one had to do was write to your tribe's BIA, tell them what you needed and you'd have all your records in the mail in a couple of weeks, for free. Most of us don't find that to be the case these days. But thanks for reminding us that there are still a few BIAs which are functioning as they are supposed to. This is good to know!! :-)
Also, when receiving probates from the BIAs I never did receive more than the few pages of the legal findings. (Land description and heirs) I was shocked when I received my first NARA probate. Some of these contain HUNDREDS of pages of testimony which is more helpful and way more interesting than the scant info which the BIAs used to send.
Welcome to you and all our new members!

[nncy58]

Does anyone know if costs anything to have a probate done on someone who is deceased but did not have a probate done?

[Vicky]

The Native American probates were only held if one died with alloted land and had heirs to pass said land down to. The purpose of the probate was to determine exactly who the legal heirs were and who inherited what portion of the land. I have a couple of ancestors who sold their allotment and had no probate done at the time of death. I don't think you can go back and have one done after the fact, or at least I've never heard of that being done. How long ago was the death?

[nncy58]

He died in 1997. He was white but his wife had died about 1962 or so. They had children but apparently he held her allotment according to her probate. We found his name on the DOI website about money being held and also the local tribe said that the family should either have a probate done which they said could cost about 800.00 or sell their portion to the tribe. I guess any money from her share has been going into his account at the DOI even tho she has died and also the children get some too but it only amounts to like a couple dollars a year.

[Vicky]

Wow, I don't know. I hope someone will come along who has knowledge of these legal matters.

[hermin1]

nancy: it sounds to me like the tribe may be trying to 'stiff" you for the land.
You have the probate for his wife which is proof that he has the legal right to the proceeds from that land.If you are a legal descendent, and can prove it, then you have a right to the proceeds from his account. I would contact the nearest BIA office by mail, send them a copy of the woman's probate, and tell them what the tribe told you(it would help if you had it in writing, but if you don't someone at the BIA office can help you). contact your local legal aid society as they may be able to advise you on handling the man's estate.

[nncy58]

Thanks Hermin
We did get the proceeds out and split between all the children but all future monies are still going to be put into the same account unless (as they say) a probate is done or sell that portion to the tribe. Could just leave it as it is but isn't that a waste of paperwork and time for the govt to manage an extra account that is for a deceased person. Also since he is white do they do a probate for him or -say- reprobate (don't know if that would be the correct word to use) her allotment to transfer title to the children. And the matter of it costing the family 800.00 is no small fact either.
Also if anyone knows maybe they could shed some light on this for me---Why did the probate transfer to him after his Indian wife died since he is white and most of the children were over legal age at the time of her death in 1962? The children are listed as shareholders on the probate and their white father is too. Do they do probates for white or is that $800.00 what it would cost to have a lawyer settle his estate.

[hermin1]

nancy58: A while back(several years ago)the Bureau of indian Affairs isssued a pamphlet re. the dispostion of Native American Estates. The BIA strongly urged the Native American to have a notarized last will and testament made out and filed, before his/her death. if they didn't, the estate would be distributed according the laws of the State they lived in.
Now, since you know where your relative died, you should check and see if he made out a Will before he died(Check with Clerk of courts for the county in which he resided, to see if there is a will filed in his name. if so, then get 3legal copies of it and send one to the Tribal office where his wife was enrolled, one to the BIA office, and one for your records.(probably will cost you @ 30 bucks for the three copies).
If not then you file a petition with the county court to have his estate probated. find out first, if he owed any money or there were any liens against his estate, and make a list of the creditors and amounts owed. also make out a a list of the heirs to his estate and their relationship to the deceased. also get a copy of his Death certificate(official copy).
then you go the County clerk and file a petition to have a hearing to determine the heirs of the estate.
he will advise you on what the court costs for filing,etc will be. then you decide what you want to do. the reason is, and the Tribal Council knows this, you can't sell his share of the land unless you can prove legal ownership of it.
it shouldn't cost 800 dollars to probate his estate either.

[nncy58]

Thanks Hermin It gives me someplace to start now. I know the people in the county offices so it shouldn't be too hard to see what our next move is. Again thank you. I knew somebody would have an idea cuz you guys are just a treasure trove of info to have here.