mona
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Posts: 128
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Post by mona on May 5, 2008 8:03:07 GMT -5
forgot to mention i'm a very poor single mother of four, got loans and did without to barely get my two year degree. when i was young, i thought like dberg, i wasnt taught anything until I started listening to my older family when they were telling things...finally started understanding what thinking seven generations ahead meant...
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Post by denney on May 5, 2008 12:35:01 GMT -5
Black Hills I have been thinking on this , I have questions on it like the list below- 1. What about our Minerails rights of this land ? 2. Has anyone ever received any Royalties off the Minerials 3. We do still have the Minerails Rights as far as I understand , That what I read and understand ? 4. Wouldnt getting those minerails money change everything on this money that our people needs . This reminds me alot of what the Cobel Case is all about right ? 5. Now getting this Money off Minerails change alot of the thinking ? 6. I understand alot of the ways alot of the people think on this , like the alot never see nothing from alot of the moneys that were to go to the people it is taken and comes up missing or we never hear nothing because alot of people is not on the reservation because the reservation cannot give us jobs to beable to live on them and now with the prices of everything makes it even harder to live. But the point is where is this money you all know there was and is alot of minerials taken off THE BLACK HILLs Land 7. We need to start our own Cobell Case on this dont you think ? 8. After knowing the above and thinking on this this money would add up to alot more money then the money the goverment want to face and I truly feel this is fact. ------- mineral rights An ownership interest in the minerals contained in a particular parcel of land, with or without ownership of the surface of the land. The owner of mineral rights is usually entitled to either take the minerals from the land himself or receive a royalty from the party that actually extracts the minerals. www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/....F720C8/alpha/M/All the above is my thoughts - Thankyou Dear Cousin, You captured the essence of the proposal's enormity. Dgberg is ready to sell our heritage for welfare/poverty-level money or the price of a college education. (Dgberg: there are grants, loans, and scholarships available for the single mother to go to school.) Just does not seem right to attempt to sell Paha Sapa so cheaply, does it? Mike
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Mathew503
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Hogantankakastaka
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 13:05:09 GMT -5
I think it should be known, spread the word-tell your family and relatives. About the matters at hand!! The elders are getting no younger and we are losing them along with the information-stories-legends and advice!!!! I for one am losing one of the 3 elders i once had, and will be left with just my grandmother who is not doing so hot herself. And i as a grandchild was never privileged with the stories and information that my elders should have been sharing with me and my siblings. Even my mother and her siblings were deprived of this for the most part.Once they left the reservation they seemed to never look back and didn't want to talk to us younguns about the past. I am 30 years old an only learned the details about my-our heritage in the last 2 years!! most of which i learned from jimmy and the trudell site. I never had access to my uncle Lowell-(bud) before he died, and my grandma and her sister Kathy who is in the hospital dieing, they were two stubborn to the bone women. And so anything i ever heard about "the ol' days" was when someone died. Only recently have i got my nana to open up and start giving up information. I come from a family of 9 kids,me being the eldest. And i'm the only one who knows anything substantial about our family history. So in a nutshell, SHARE-ASK-TELL AND PASS ON THE HERITAGE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME!!! Education is knowledge and knowledge is power-priceless.
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Mathew503
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 13:20:16 GMT -5
I agree mike, i to have pondered this topic. and without sale of the land this entitles the rightful owner-owners to a set amount of the total take-harvest of any resources taken-harvested from said parcel of land. and with the resources in question there has to be documented totals on each of the individual resources.It all winds down to accounting. finding the records of the total take of all the individual resources. plus interest over all the years and inflation factors. It could get messy but your right. NO BILL OF SALE, NO DEAL! OWN UP AND PAY UP!!!
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Post by Vicky on May 5, 2008 13:20:22 GMT -5
When I started doing genealogical research well over 20 years ago, one of the first lessons I learned (and certainly the most important) was to “do the math”. Using the numbers presented in the above article, let’s do the math. We have 90,000 Sioux members entitled to these bucks. That comes to $12,000 each. Now, let’s figure out what the lawyer’s cut will be- The contract says 20 percent. Like any other lawyer, he can charge whatever he chooses for “expenses”. You agree to that, not knowing what the total amount will be. Subtract the lawyer’s cut, 20 percent ($2,400) = $9,600 for the Indian Is this money taxable as income? I don’t know, but if it is, prepare for this- $12,000 less 30 percent to the IRS ($3,600) and you are now left with $6,000 for the Indian. Now we deduct the $20 retainer paid up front for each person. It looks like this- $5,980 left for the Indian Subtract any additional money paid to the lawyer for expenses and you have less than that, for the Indian. Now let’s look at where all that money goes- The lawyer (s) get- 20 percent of YOUR award as agreed to in the contract. $216,000,000 (Yupper, that’s millions) from the percentage of “your” money you agreed to give them. They also get $1,800,000 from the retainers you all paid. They also get whatever they choose to charge you for “expenses”. The IRS could possibly end up with $324,000,000. I heard that it was announced at the meeting that the amount of bucks you will get could be as low as $10,000. You might be looking at far less money than what is stated above. It is truly amazing to me, just how easy it still is for wasicu to divide and conquer. Dang, it’s just so easy. No wonder they continue to do it, to this day. Why do they continue to take advantage of you? Because they can. Because you let them. I am not here to judge anybody, but at the end of the day you have only two choices of what you will tell your great grandchildren: 1. I fought with every inch of my being to have Paha Sapa returned to you and all your children to come. 2. I sold my soul to the devil for 5 grand. I signed over your birthright for all the generations to come. You must choose the one which makes you proud.
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Mathew503
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 13:25:45 GMT -5
Very well put vicky! very well put!
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Post by rickgerlach on May 5, 2008 14:36:24 GMT -5
I'm from Yankton, I don't know who, or when, or why, but I've heard that the Yankton Sioux Tribe has already sold out on the Paha Sapa?
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Mathew503
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 14:54:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure how it works but it makes sense to me that it would take a majority vote from all tribes involved. correct me if i'm wrong. but a couple of greedy indian blooded people can not act or speak for a whole nation of people who have not spoken themselves.!!!
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Post by jazzdog on May 5, 2008 14:55:08 GMT -5
Dear fellow members of the Lakota and Dakota heritage
I have really enjoyed the conversation and exchanges upon the great Black Hills claim issue. I agree with much that everyone has said about time, need, virtue, want and desire, to have a solution to the long standing yet unresolved issues. However, I think that we all need to stand back from where we each stand at the moment and have a look at each other through the kalidescope of the past, present and the future....... We need to respect each person's point of view and personal ideas about the problem and the potential outcomes......but we should not abandon nor forget, the real reason behind the grand venture that took place in pursuing the case of Sioux Nation v. US. First of all, our individual and collective anscestors negotiated tough and hard to reach so called peace agreements, or treaties, with the "great father" from time to time.......the Dakota in 1815, 1837, and 1851 and 1858......the Lakota in the treaties of 1851 and the great Ft. Laramie Treaty of 1868. However, and unfortunately, as we all have come to know and realize, the US did not deal faithfully, reasonably nor honestly or honorably with our anscestors, and to the letter, the US has reneged on each and every treaty that was made and ratified with the Sioux. The great Sioux Nation was officially recognized in the 1868 Ft. Laramie treaty which granted the right to use, occupy and enjoy, the Black Hills, for as long as the grass shall grow and the sky is blue.......little did we know that the fraudulent and decietful plans of the great father and his henchmen, looked through colorblind and evil eyes, when the terms of the 1868 treaty were sought to be enforced by the people. I have been lucky enough to learn much of the history of the Black Hills claim, and have seen documents such as the Sheridan letters, which are documents that broke the 1980 case open on the issue of fraud, leading to the terrible treaty of 1877 which illegally confiscated the Black Hills from the Sioux. After long years of battle, figuratively and in litigation, the US Supreme Court declared the 1877 treaty to be one of the "most rank cases of dishonorable dealings" in the history of the US. For it was the criminal planners and schemers that developed the conspiracy to divest the Sioux of the Black Hills after the likes of William Randolph Hearst established an illegal claim for properties in Lead and Deadwood, which then precipitated the 1875 Custer expedition to look for gold in the Black Hills......which in turn, directly led to the US reversal of policy.......the US no longer would seek to protect the Sioux boundaries of their reservation, but instead would allow homesteaders, miners and settlers into the great Sioux Nation, and if the Sioux sought to selfhelp themselves to protect their treaty and aboriginal lands, then the US would treat the Sioux that protected themselves, as hostiles.....we all know where this led.....the last great stand was taken at greasy grass (Little Big Horn). I have been blessed, as have my siblings and our cousins, to come from some courageous lines of anscestors on both the paternal (Minnesota Dakota Sioux) and maternal Lakota (Hunkpapa/Minneconjou Lakota Cheyenne River Sioux). Our maternal great grandfather fought in and survived the battle at greasy grass in that last great stand before the terrible 1877 Taking treaty..... In the big picture, when I say that we must all look at ourselves and who we are now, we must also look at ourselves as who we will be ten, twenty, thirty or forty years from now.....and how the young and very young will look at us, or look up to us, with honor, respect and gratitude, for thinking of them, and our anscestors past and present, based upon the courage and deeds that we all show now, here on Earth. We must allow ourselves to visualize why it was that our anscestors fought and negotiated so hard to keep and preserve the sacred Paha Sapa.....why so many gave their physical and emotional lives to the cause to seek justice and restoration of the beloved Hills back into the hands of the Sioux if that could ever come to pass........ Gary Montana, in a recent article spoke of the truth of the struggle and the real goal of the Black Hills litigation. No backroom political deal with only individuals will suffice to allow any money to be paid out of the Black Hills judgment fund. It will take an act of Congress and almost unanimous consent of all of the treaty Sioux before a meaningful and honest resolution can be had. However, the 1868 treaty is still good law, as the Court declared that the 1877 treaty was invalid. There have been attempts over time, by certain groups and individuals, with their lawyers and legal teams enthusiastically pushing, to try to get payment of part of the judgment fund without a land base resolution. Obviously, those did not, nor could they, work. The most honest attempt to resolve the totality of the claim was made in 1988 with the Bradley Bill that was designed to restore a large portion of the land base back to the Sioux.......this was the option that I agreed with, but it lost its steam when the Sioux tribes couldn't unify to agree to support it. We do realize that people are hurting now......financially, morally and socially. However, those plights will and do, always exist for us all to varying degrees. No one time payment of a portion of the judgment amount to each individual will ever restore the sacredness and completeness of being one with the Mother Earth in her sacred center, chante, her heart......the Black Hills. This is why we must continue to fight for her and for our future generations to restore that circle to its rightful existence. We should not allow ourselves to be flushed into a vacuum of urgency to get money at all cost.......what you recieve in dollars, may destroy a part of your humanity in the end, if it does not come with the giving back of the Black Hills. Ulysses S. Grant, Col. Sheridan, Col. Harney, etc......these are names that are etched in infamy as far as the Sioux people are concerned. These types conspired with the wealthy and well connected of that day in the late 1800's to steal what was not theirs, much to our collective damage and dispair. Don't let them pull another one over on us again. If you are ever lucky enough to climb the majestic sacred Bear Butte, and upon standing on the highest peak, find yourself looking to the southwest......you can feel the warm breeze coming off the pinecoated ridges and valleys of the mother Hills, and sense the helpful spirits touching you inside with kindness, beauty and energy.....but most of all, you can feel the pride and honor that comes with being a part of her, and allowing her spirit to guide you to do what is right by our anscestors and our young ones, for which we will all need to tell someday, what it is that we did, each one of us, to help restore the Great Spirit's grand plan for us in our world and our duty to serve as each others' keeper and protector. Just some thoughts to share on the discussion.
thanks
your friend
Jazzdog
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Mathew503
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 15:33:41 GMT -5
I would like to stand on the peaks of the hills and bask in all the beauty. You paint a very lovely picture.
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Post by glohoney on May 5, 2008 15:42:37 GMT -5
It's sad but until these cases lots of people don't even know or claim to be Indian, why is that? Also, isn't it only for the enrolled members to decide what will happen with the $$$. Correct me if I am wrong, but either we take or it stays with the tribe? Also, can or have the tribes borrowed off of it already? Just wondering, thanks Glo
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Mathew503
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Post by Mathew503 on May 5, 2008 16:00:51 GMT -5
Good question.
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Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on May 5, 2008 16:14:51 GMT -5
May God continually RICHLY Bless you, Jazzdog. (I love your writing! MIKE)
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Post by antap2 on May 7, 2008 14:12:10 GMT -5
I'm questioning as to whom it is exactly who owns the Black Hills? Is there a document or an agreement? Is there a deed or is it rez land by treaty? Mr. Brokenrope wants to know!
Thanks! Nate
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Post by stephanie on May 7, 2008 14:50:40 GMT -5
On the black hills issue; I used to think that Jesus would be back before the Sioux Nation accepts one dime of the Black Hills trust.....interest or no interest. Not so sure now as law firms go after smaller tribes like Yankton who struggle. Rosebud, Pineridge and other larger sioux tribes say it will never happen but many are on hard times. How can you put a price on what is sacred? The wasicu's always find a way. They are determined to distribute after 20+ years even though the Black Hills continue to be the richest mineral, uranium and gold distributor in the United States. They continue to mine it but want the Sioux's to accept a 1980 price. What's wrong with this picture. stephanie
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Post by Jimmy on May 7, 2008 14:55:51 GMT -5
I'm questioning as to whom it is exactly who owns the Black Hills? Is there a document or an agreement? Is there a deed or is it rez land by treaty? Mr. Brokenrope wants to know! Thanks! Nate The Lakota were forced to give up the Black Hills in a treaty. A lawsuit was brought in 1921, stating that the deal signing away the Black Hills was a case of shady dealing by the government, and the people want the land back. The case was in the courts until 1980, when the supreme court said that the deal was indeed shady and actually stated that the event was the worst case of fraud in U.S. history, and ruled in favor of the Lakota. So by this ruling, the treaty that gave up the Black Hills is null and void, therefore, the Lakota people should own the Black Hills. But unfortunately, the government has refused to give back the Black Hills and instead gave monetary compensation of a hundred and something million dollars. The Lakota nation has not accepted this money because we don't want the money, we want the Black Hills that are rightfully ours.
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Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on May 7, 2008 15:02:01 GMT -5
Amen, JIMMY!
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Post by stephanie on May 8, 2008 18:24:48 GMT -5
Jimmy, If the Black Hills are truly ours, then so are the minerals that come from it. Therefore, the Nations should be continually compensated for what is and was taken....right? The 868 million is a drop in the bucket. The Sioux have fended off this issue for over 20 years and yet they can't come together to fight off a hog farm. Unity is the key no matter what tribe or issue.
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Post by Jimmy on May 8, 2008 20:55:42 GMT -5
Jimmy, If the Black Hills are truly ours, then so are the minerals that come from it. Therefore, the Nations should be continually compensated for what is and was taken....right? The 868 million is a drop in the bucket. The Sioux have fended off this issue for over 20 years and yet they can't come together to fight off a hog farm. Unity is the key no matter what tribe or issue. Exactly, that is why the government has refused to give it back, it is too valuable to them. Only after they have sifted every grain of sand and taken out every ounce of gold will they offer it back. Because the Supreme Court has ruled it is ours, we should start another lawsuit to be reimbursed for the resources stolen from it over the last 140 years. The current settlement would be chump change in comparison.
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Post by mdenney on May 10, 2008 0:22:40 GMT -5
This Lawyer made this up to rep us all in this IF we want to take the deal...you don't have to. Hey, wait a min here...we don't have to take the deal with him...let us find another Lawyer to do it cheaper, since 216 mil is to much money for him to spend in this life...I am going to ask any LAWYER who reads this to come up with a Native American way to handle this BLACKHILLS case...in a manner that would make everyone happy...huh! It does not have to be KETTERING. It can be a fair INDIAN LAWYER to handle it! YEEEHAAAAAAAAHHHHH! Sorry about that...carried away on it.
Any ways 20 percent is to much of my money to be just letting any joe toss 20 percent around like he is doing...keep in mind it is your money and you should be able to come to an agreement on the percentage with any law firm. I my self think 7% of 90,000 siouxs is plenty money for this Lawyer or any Lawyer Like Karrdall he tossed out 33 1/2 % to the people and that compared to this is GREED. The sad part is a beautiful speach is always givin...and we fall for it. Can anyone contact Kettering and ask him to amend his rep claim to see fit for the people??
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